vikgrao Show full post »
hifiaudio2
After looking at them I may just put screw in hooks on the ceiling and attach the 4 eye bolts on the back of the panel to that.  According to the GIK site, these panels weigh 14 lbs each.  With 4 connections going into the double drywall of the ceiling, do you guys think I should worry about hitting the channel with what I am screwing in the ceiling or will just screwing into the double drywall be fine?


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audioguy
hifiaudio2 wrote:


Now to figure out a good way to mount them to the ceiling....


I have 4 of those same GIK panels suspended from my front ceiling.  I used hanging basket hooks and turnbuckles so that I could get them exactly parallel.  A MAJOR pain the rear and very time consuming but it did work.  From the floor, you can not see how they are attached so I stood on one of my subs to take this photo:



I had null between about 100 to 300hz that using OmniMic I determined was from the ceiling and this completely eliminated it!

We have hi-jacked your thread.  I apologize!!!
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FOH
Remember, it's all about the gap. The greater the spacing of the boundary, the more effectively broadband the absorption is. And if one utilizes absorption, it's best as broadband as possible. 
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hifiaudio2
Thanks guys. Chuck did you just screw the basket hooks into drywall? Or hit a stud or something? I am thinking drywall will hold it......?
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audioguy
FOH wrote:
Remember, it's all about the gap. The greater the spacing of the boundary, the more effectively broadband the absorption is. And if one utilizes absorption, it's best as broadband as possible. 


And that is why those bass traps are suspended about 4 or 5  inches.
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audioguy
hifiaudio2 wrote:
Thanks guys. Chuck did you just screw the basket hooks into drywall? Or hit a stud or something? I am thinking drywall will hold it......?


I don't recall but I think I may have used studs but each inner panel (there are 4 hung here) shares hooks  with the panel on either side of it.  That is why I purchased LONG turnbuckles.  Otherwise you could not get them to hang correctly.  The turnbuckle is hooked to the supplied hooks connected to the panel.

The tricky part is adjusting the inner turnbuckles particularly since I could only reach from one side or one end as the other end was butted up against a soffit that runs across the middle of the room.
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FOH
Vik,

Again, gorgeous theater. The lines, the lighting, just the overall aesthetic is killer!

I'm curious, did you encounter much trouble blending the OS sub with the Catalysts? I've gotta believe with the Cat12C's phenomenal mid-bass capability, combined with the horn loaded subwoofer, there's got to be an incredible punchy, tight and tactile bass characteristic to the sound ... care to share your thoughts and additional impressions?




audioguy wrote:
And that is why those bass traps are suspended about 4 or 5  inches.


The comments were directed toward anyone contemplating treatment.


hifiaudio2 wrote:
I am thinking drywall will hold it......?


When supporting anything off a wall or ceiling, whereby the studs/joists don't always align ideally, you can always span multiple studs/joists with some nice trim piece of finished material, then anchor the treatment panel into it at any point you wish.

I have a modest, non-dedicated room. My first ceiling absorption utilized aircraft cable from side-wall to side-wall, and I could place multiple treatment panels wherever I wanted. I was experimenting quite often so this facilitated movement, removal etc, quite quickly.

My next ceiling treatment utilized a sawtooth alignment, or lap-board siding approach, whereby the panel edge thickness was exposed to the incident energy. My concern was grazing angles/incident angles, and the technique proved quite effective. I'm currently re-structuring my ceiling treatment again, moving toward even further optimization.

The cool thing about ceiling treatment is there's very little downside. Many feel there's a point where one can overly absorb sidewall energy, diminishing envelopment and immersiveness. But properly executed ceiling absorption seems to be exempt from this caveat. Plus, the additional bass trapping is always desirable.

Thanks
Thanks

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hifiaudio2
FOH wrote:


The cool thing about ceiling treatment is there's very little downside. Many feel there's a point where one can overly absorb sidewall energy, diminishing envelopment and immersiveness. But properly executed ceiling absorption seems to be exempt from this caveat. Plus, the additional bass trapping is always desirable.





That is very interesting and something I did not know.  I was a little concerned about adding these as my decay times with the Quest treatments Dennis designed are already in the .20-.24ms range, from 250 hz to 8khz according to XTZ.  I didnt want to kill these any further.   So if ceiling treatments are unlikely to mess with that,  with the added benefit of first reflection treatment and bass trapping,  that is great!

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vikgrao
Thanks for the kind words FOH!  The orbitshifter blended with the catalysts without much effort on my part other than running basic audyssey. Other than that  I apologize that unlike most of you guys on the forum i don't have the technical expertise to comment further.This is why i am taking the help of a professional calibrator( Jeff Meier "UMR on AVS" in June to calibrate. Also later in the Year i may get the QSC 250i DSP with enough in/out to control all the speakers and again get a associated qualified Calibrator for Calibration.

In a couple of weeks hopefully i will be describing in detail on the OS thread on AVS my view and of others who visited my theater and experienced the OS.

B.T.W  My Quest ceiling treatments were anchored with Rotofast snap on anchors which had provided screw ratchets inserted into them, We additionally improvised and connected the ratchets to toggle bolts which went through three layers of drywall with green glue.

Audioguy don't apologize about hijacking..this discussion you guys are having about ceiling treatments is extremely useful!
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FOH
vikgrao wrote:
Thanks for the kind words FOH!  The orbitshifter blended with the catalysts without much effort on my part other than running basic audyssey. Other than that  I apologize that unlike most of you guys on the forum i don't have the technical expertise to comment further.This is why i am taking the help of a professional calibrator( Jeff Meier "UMR on AVS" in June to calibrate. Also later in the Year i may get the QSC 250i DSP with enough in/out to control all the speakers and again get a associated qualified Calibrator for Calibration.

In a couple of weeks hopefully i will be describing in detail on the OS thread on AVS my view and of others who visited my theater and experienced the OS.

B.T.W  My Quest ceiling treatments were anchored with Rotofast snap on anchors which had provided screw ratchets inserted into them, We additionally improvised and connected the ratchets to toggle bolts which went through three layers of drywall with green glue.

Audioguy don't apologize about hijacking..this discussion you guys are having about ceiling treatments is extremely useful!



Thanks for the explanation. I'm sure it sounds impressive now, and when Jeff Meier leaves, it'll be great.

I appreciate the QSC mention, I'd not been aware of that piece and platform, looks interesting .. so best of luck there. I'll be looking for more of your impressions both here and at AVS.

Thanks, and have fun!   






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FOH

hifiaudio2 wrote:
That is very interesting and something I did not know. I was a little concerned about adding these as my decay times with the Quest treatments Dennis designed are already in the .20-.24ms range, from 250 hz to 8khz according to XTZ. I didnt want to kill these any further. So if ceiling treatments are unlikely to mess with that, with the added benefit of first reflection treatment and bass trapping, that is great!




It's less about objective, empirical stuff (i.e. decay times, envelope time curves), and more relative to subjective appeal.

I was careful in stating "many feel", as opposed to my own preferences. In my small room, I like a massive amount of front half room absorption. I prefer the "you are there" imaging approach. Toole has cited the appeal of greater ASW, or apparent source width, is subjectively pleasing. If the first sidewall reflections are tended to, the recording's intended effect can be experienced. Further smearing these details, and widening the ASW may appeal to some, in some rooms, but I prefer another approach in my room.

I've experimented a great deal in my room, and each room is going to be different, and quite often each individual may be more inclined to enjoy differing levels of sidewall imaging energy. Dennis and I had a fun spirited disagreement wrt to early reflections, and treatment strategy. I'm unclear of his current position, however his body of work is solid and I've got a great deal of respect for him. There exists a multitude of treatment approaches, but the end result is what's important. I'm guessing I'd be very happy in most any of Dennis' room designs.

Dennis' position regarding early reflections, and subsequent PM discussion with both Dennis and Ethan Winer, launched me into a period of further experimentation in my room. So that I'm quite thankful for (I've still not stopped).

Here is the AVS thread (I begin at post #10). Many had interpreted Toole's findings absorption was detrimental for the sidewall energy. However long-standing ETC based findings (Davis and Patronis) for studio design, for smooth response, ideal imaging and increased clarity, run entirely counter to additional sidewall and early reflection energy. Somewhat of a theoretical and technical ideal, vs psycho-acoustic preference by a group of unskilled listeners. Solid arguments in both camps.

My point is however one feels about sidewall treatment, effective amounts of treatment for the ceiling can be wonderfully helpful in both response smoothing (as Chuck noted), image clarity and often over-looked is ceiling mounted bass trapping. Aesthetically, a cloud type system can be made very attractive. Many can be implemented with built in down lighting, indirect up-lighting for a more ambient feel.

Also, one can take a somewhat inexpensive, thinner manufactured panel, and add more locally bought insulation on top of it easily improving it's performance for very little expense. By staying away from the edges, the appearance of the original, stock panel is retained, however the performance is improved.

Thanks




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hifiaudio2
Reading through that thread now....  very good stuff, as always FOH!  

On a related note, I just ordered my Xilica XP2040.  Should be fun to start messing with a real EQ for those low frequencies!!


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hifiaudio2
Hey Vik -  your "inlets"  seen here...  did you use one long power cord all the way from the speakers and projector to this spot?   

Mine are designed with a plug at the projector and speaker end,  and then Romex in the wall to a male power connection in my closet,  where a thick extension cord style cord goes from the inlet to the wall.  Yours looks to be one long power cord.  Is that correct? I like the way yours look.




Click image for larger version - Name: vik_inlets.GIF, Views: 367, Size: 54.16 KB
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vikgrao
Hi,<br>behind the screen wall there are 3 20A hospital grade(one of them quad) outlets. From them there are 2 long wires running to the equipment room and terminating in Hospital grade power plugs.  Out of the two long wires one of them (attached to the Quad behind the screen wall)  is a heavy duty 10 gauge copper wire.  The third wire terminating in plug is from the projector outlet.<br><br>All 4 outlets in the equipment room are on dedicated 20 amp breakers each. Between the Quad Outlet in the equipment room and the breaker  there is a 2nd heavy duty 10 gauge wire running.  (The Orbitshifter behind the screen wall and i think the center channel hooks to the quad outlet (utilizes the 10 gauge wire too and fro)<br><br>I have 200amps service for the house and a couple of years ago added an additional 200amp service from my energy provider. Out of that equipment room has 80amps and i forgot how much amps was allotted to the inside of the theater.  Everything is way overkill i feel and i don't know why but few years ago i used to own the JL Audio Gotham G213 and i remember Barry Ober Of JL audio advised me  regarding the hospital grade outlets for it and 20 guage copper wire,etc. <a href="http://www.soundoctor.com/about.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.soundoctor.com/about.htm<br><br></a> 
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vikgrao
Theater Article in Electronic House with mention of the CATS.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/superman_theater_delivers_15k_watts_of_sonic_superpower
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hifiaudio2
Awesome man!  Congrats on the nice article.
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vikgrao
thanks!!
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FOH
Yes, very nice.

You should really be proud, what an enormous undertaking ... and the end result appears so spectacular!
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vikgrao
Thanks FOH!
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Mark_Seaton
Congrats and thank you very much for posting the link to the article here.  I saw the article pop up in the Electronic House e-mail newsletter yesterday and smiled to see a project like yours get some much warranted coverage.  Too bad they didn't add any pictures from behind the screen.  I'll have to post this up to the FB page.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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vikgrao
Thanks Mark! Yeah i wish they did the pic from behind the screen too.
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Mark_Seaton
Hi Vik,

You might notice I posted the pictures from the first page to our FB page.  By chance do you have a picture or screen shot from your iRule panels so I could give my friends at iRule a little plug and show & tell?
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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vikgrao
I noticed it thanks Mark. My iRule is currently being programmed by a dealer in Canada so i dont have any pics. I will have them though in a week or two most likely, and will email you them right away.
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engtaz
Absolutely gorgeous Theater.
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vikgrao
Thank you engtaz!
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