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audioguy
I actually did once have too much woof.  I had two now discontinued SVS subs that each had 4 12 inch drivers AND had two PB12-Plus/2's.

It moved so much air that the structural integrity of my basement was compromised.  Those four driver  SVS subs were awesome.

But you are probably right with the "for now".



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Utnapishtim
"I sort of know what you mean about a sub not handling a particular scene. For me, it was Terminator 3. There were some parts with my old sub, JM Labs SW900, that I could tell it was struggling badly and distorting. Now, I don't have that happen at all.
With the SubMersive, it is just effortless output and clarity in my room."

Hey MikeDuke--thanks for that feedback. My Ultra has been really great, but I'm just excited to get to another level of .1 and stop hearing startling noises from my sub.

I'm in the que, so I'll be experiencing SubMersive sound soon. I'll report back after I get the beast... .
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MikeDuke
Congrats and I can't wait to hear your thoughts.  Although I think I can guess what they will be.

I simply love this stuff.
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Utnapishtim
MikeDuke wrote:
Congrats and I can't wait to hear your thoughts.  Although I think I can guess what they will be.


Will do...  Now I just need to keep myself distracted while I wait.  I feel like the kid who wanted the Red-Rider BB gun in A Christmas Story...
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mfine
Utnapishtim wrote:
Now I just need to keep myself distracted while I wait.


http://bix.yahoo.com/top10/21748
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Utnapishtim
http://bix.yahoo.com/top10/21748

That was great!!! Nice one mfine!

I'll be chuckling for the rest of the day...
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duwdu
Utnapishtim wrote:
http://bix.yahoo.com/top10/21748

That was great!!! Nice one mfine!

I'll be chuckling for the rest of the day...

+1 on the link by mfine.
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JonathanEngr
This is the perfect thread for me. I've been mulling over a new sub purchase for the better part of two years, and I'm down to pulling the trigger. About the ONLY sub I was looking at was the SVS Ultra 13, and now I find this. I must say that I'm very intrigued.

I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but my current sub (that to me at the time) totally blew me away--a Velodyne CHT12. It used to be in a much smaller room, but I now have a dedicated HT room that's nearly 4000 cf in size. It still sounds good, but after listening to various subs I realized that I've been missing an astonishing amount of sound in music and movies. I've been salivating at the idea of a *real* subwoofer.

I'm certainly no audiophile, and I get almost completely lost in all of the graphs, curves, spls and dBs, although I'm currently catching up. My question is, how does the Submersive stack up against the Ultra-13, and would it make a significant difference in my room? How does it sound musically when compared to the Ultra? Does it go lower and louder yet have less distortion?

My speakers are older yet than my subwoofer, and were purchased during my college years. My fronts are Polk RT800i's, and I have voice-matched center and surrounds. Hardly high-end gear, so will the Submersive sound odd with these speakers vastly overpowering them? I'm driving them with an Onkyo TX-NR905B (140w/channel).

Okay--odd question, but it comes to mind reading about these high-performance subs. My screen is a mechanical drop-from-the-ceiling screen, and my current sub is to the back-left of the screen. Not directly behind it, but not far from it. It's the easiest and most inconspicuous place for my sub, and I would hate to relocate it. Will this sub actually cause my screen to blow around and move? I'm just trying to cover all of the bases prior to purchase.

Lastly, if I placed an order today, can anyone give me a rough idea of when the unit would ship? Thanks!
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MikeDuke
Jonathan,
Glad you decided to stop by.  As far as comparison goes, lets start with SQ.  The SVS seems to have some high SQ.  For music and HT.  The SubMersive has been equaly highly rated for movies and music by all of the users.  If you want to focus on output, it has also been noted that the Ultra 13 will likely have more output right around the turning of the sub port.  But above the tuning and below the submersive should pull away without much trouble.  There have been a few people who have a submersive in a room your size and they are quite pleased with the results.  Now as far as your speakers go, don't worry about outplaying your other speakers.  When you calibrate your sub with the rest of the system, it will not be overpowering.  As far as the sub moving your screen, I would not worry about that to much either.  The only thing that will move is the room itself

I simply love this stuff.
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JonathanEngr
Thanks, Mike. This might not be the place to ask this, but what exactly do you mean by "tuning of the sub port"? Are there very specific frequencies this applies to, or would it be the full range of the sub?
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MikeDuke
Most of the SVS subs are built a bit differently then other subs.  They are fundamentally ported subs.  But they are designed to allow the user to block one or more or all of the ports.
The Ultra 13 has three ports.  Depending on how many you block, it will lower the tuning frequency of the box itself.  It has a 20Hz mode, 15Hz mode, 10hz mode and a sealed mode.  Running with all ports open should potentially give the most output.  So, if you had an Ultra 13 in 20Hz mode, from about 17 to maybe 24Hz the Ultra may prove to be somewhat louder then the Submersive.  But below that and above that the SubMersive should be able to play louder and cleaner the than the Ultra.  The SubMersive has a ton of head room and can really play very loud in the mid bass region. The SubMersive also has the ability to play very low also.  I suggest that you also read some of the other threads here. 
check out cruzmisl and MARS08.  They have good threads on how the sub did in their room
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2066121
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2731583
Just to see how the sub acted in their room.


I simply love this stuff.
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JonathanEngr
Gotcha! Well, that sounds like what I'm looking for... a lot of output across the entire range. What about sound quality compared to the SVS (I saw your reply above about comments of other people, but ...) I know that it can be subjective, but is there some "rule-of-thumb" regarding sound quality that can actually be measured?

One thing I forgot to ask yesterday. My theater room has the 2'x'2 acoustical ceiling tiles, the 3-d ones that drop below the hangers. I chose this ceiling type for ease of "rewiring" should the need occur, but was this a bad choice? Will a sub like this cause lots of vibration in the tiles? If so, is there a way to counter this result?

Lastly, I know the Submersive is in a totally different class than my current sub (Velodyne CHT-12), but what exactly can I expect difference-wise between it and the Submersive?
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JonathanEngr
Okay--my room is a bit larger than the link to the second post, and someone recommended a Terraform for that room. Should I look at the Terraform? First question: how much is it? I can't seem to find any web pages with details on either the submersive or the terraform. Are these in the works?

One critical question I keep forgetting to ask--I can't find the dimensions of the submersive anywhere. Can anyone give me the quick L x W x D measurements?
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MikeDuke
That's the problem.  SQ is so subjective.  To be honest I have not heard the Ultra 13.  But there are others on this forum who have.  They all feel that the Ultra does not out do the SubMersive in SQ.  This sub out performs my old sub in SQ as well.  For me what this meant was the bass sounded effortless and not straining at all.  It has a weight to it that my other sub did not.

As far as what kind of differences you can experience, I would say . Would cover it quite well.  Then you will be and because you will not believe the bass your are getting with the sub.  

I simply love this stuff.
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MikeDuke
OK first, here are the demensions
Cabinet dimensions: 24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H
weight 120lbs.
As far as having a bigger room check out the post from this guy
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2939784
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2983290

His room is close to 6000cf.  He is using a single SubMersive if I am not mistaken.

The Terraform is a monster for sure:
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=2438650#1
http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2381183
Not sure of the price of the standard.  If you go to the products section you can see some info.  Hopefully Mark can chime in and give some good comparisons between the two.   I think in the really really low stuff the Terraform will outperform the SubMersive but as you get a little bit higher it will take two Terraform subs to match the output of a single SubMersive.  They are much larger as well.
I simply love this stuff.
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JonathanEngr
Yup--more of those confusing graphs :-) Now--I see this quite a bit, but what does the guy mean when he says "I listen to most stuff at -15dB to -10 dB"? I understand decibels as a measurement of loudness on an exponential scale, but what is the above statement in reference to? For that matter, why does my Onkyo receiver start at a negative scale, reach zero, and then go positive? I can set it to an absolute scale, but what is the purpose of the zero? Is that the point of diminishing clarity? Sorry--that's off-topic.

As for the room, I know that the volume of the space will obviously affect air pressure, but is there some importance of the actual room dimensioning? Will a room with more square footage but lower ceilings be better acoustically than a smaller room with high ceilings if they have the same volume? For my room volume, should I use the hight of my acoustical ceiling (just short of 9 feet) or the floor above (12 feet)?

I'm going to try to google sub tuning... it seems like I really need to buy a meter to get everything sounding the way it should. Am I correct in this assessment?

Mike--I loved the summation of what I should expect...!!! Man I need to do this :-)
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MikeDuke
"I listen to most stuff at -15dB to -10 dB"?
This has to do with the system level.  0db is considered to be reference.  That is typically very very loud.  It is the the level of output with no attenuation at all.  Now, if someone listens to a movie at -10 that means that if they calibrated their system with test tones with the master level at 0 then they are -10db from that point.  Reference also has to do with the absolute output.  Read Dr.Specs post on the following link.  That is a good explanation of it. 
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4464

As far as room height. I would do it to where your ceiling tiles are.
Yes an SPL meter is very important in setting up your system correctly. If you need help with that part just let us know and we can give you some guidance.
I simply love this stuff.
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JonathanEngr
Okay... so am I correct in assuming that is I was using the same speaker setup, two different amps/receivers/whatever, say a 65w per channel Onkyo versus a 140w per channel Onkyo, the reference level (zero) would produce entirely different decibels and sound pressures in the same room?

I have played my Onkyo at zero level a time or two, and it's not pleasant. I mean--the sound quality is okay, I suppose, but it's hard to tell because it's so loud. The speakers are rated for 250 watts, so I'm sure the Onkyo is the weak link here. IF the speakers are distorting, would this throw off the measurements?

With that said, is there a good guide for watts per cubic foot of space? I assume that the dB scale would be absolute--the more volume you have the more power you would need to create the same pressures in the room. Is the Onkyo I have enough to do the trick? I know it's 140w/channel over 7 channels, but I only have 5 speakers in the room right now (I have a new set of dipoles I have yet to install). Despite this fact, I seriously doubt if the surrounds ever get anywhere near the levels of the fronts, and the fronts likely don't ever see more than 80 to 90 watts.

I guess this is all leading back around to my earlier concern... is this sub going to completely outclass everything else I have, resulting in having to turn it waaaaaay down to match up with the rest of my setup thus negating the incredible prowess of this sub?
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Mark_Seaton
JonathanEngr wrote:

Lastly, if I placed an order today, can anyone give me a rough idea of when the unit would ship? Thanks!


Hi Jonathan,

I've been keeping the thread "Product Listing, Availability, Status and Pricing" up to date with availability and lead times.  With very welcome increase in orders in the past 2 months some quoted dates have slipped a week with timing of inbound parts and getting additional help up to speed, but we keep improving on delivery times, and we'll soon see if some new resources can help speed things further (or just push the demand up! )

I'll respond to some other questions in separate posts.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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MikeDuke
Going from 65 to 140w per channel may make a difference.  But if it is calibrated properly, you should be OK. Onkyo is pretty honest in their power ratings.  I would think that 140 per ch would be fine.  There really is no hard and fast rule for wattage and room size.  I am in a 1000cf room the wattage I have is rated to be 2050 watts.  Basically you need enough power so that you can listen at a level that you like without distortion.  For some people, that is a lot of power.  You said that you don't want to negate the incredible prowess of this sub.  I think I have the smallest room that has a submersive.  I am no where near the max capability of what this sub can deliver.  But it still sounds great.  Also, think of this as long term investment.  As your system grows and becomes better, trust me, the madness never ends, you  have that foundation to lean on of a great sub. 
I simply love this stuff.
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MikeDuke
P.S
Sorry if those other posts confused you with the graphs.    Everyone has a different room with different placement options.  You just mentioned that you had a fairly large room so I wanted to just show you what other people have experienced.  I know that can be a dangerous thing to do.
I simply love this stuff.
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mfine
JonathanEngr wrote:
Okay... so am I correct in assuming that is I was using the same speaker setup, two different amps/receivers/whatever, say a 65w per channel Onkyo versus a 140w per channel Onkyo, the reference level (zero) would produce entirely different decibels and sound pressures in the same room?


Nope

The point of "reference" is so they are the same.  Typically, to calibrate you play a test tone with a known level, usually 75 db.  While the master volume is set to 0.0, you adjust the channel levels so the tone coming out of each speaker reads at 75 db on your meter, AT THE SEATS.  Once calibrate, if you play a movie where the dialog was mixed to be 85 db, if you listen on your speakers in your room at reference, or my setup in my room, or Mike's setup etc, the dialog will be heard at 85 db.  The difference in rooms, speakers amps etc, should be calibrated out (for the most part).  Then, when Mike says he watched a movie at -10db and a certain scene felt like X, we can all listen to the same scene in out theaters at -10db and know how loud he was listening.  The point of reference is/was to ensure a level of uniformity from theater to theater, but it also applies to home theaters as well.

The issue you may run into is that many home systems can not play cleanly at reference.  While the level SHOULD be the same for the two receivers, the 65 wpc Onkyo may clip on some scenes at -5db where the 140 is still clean.  This will depend on room size, speaker sensitivity, amp capabilities etc.  Generally the louder you want to listen, the futher from the speakers, and the lower the sensitivity of the speaker, the more amp power (wattage) you will need.  FWIW, every time you DOUBLE the amp power, you gain a mere 3 db in clean output.  So, if your 65 wpc amp is clean with a given movie scene up to a master volume level of say -6db, the 140 WPC amp should be clean to about -3 db and it would take 260 watts in this example to stay clean all the way to reference or 0.0 db.


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JonathanEngr
Eureka!!!! Mfine--that is exactly the explanation I was needing. It makes absolutely perfect sense. So--when you buy a calibration disk, etc., it will give you test tones and such, and give the dB they should be at the listening position. Thus, I assume as your main speakers begin to drop off, you want to adjust your sub to make up for that difference to keep the dB's the same (level) so you don't have a hole or bloat in the freq range. Anyway, now I completely understand that (right now) my volume level at reference (0 dB) might be meaningless, but after calibration it becomes an absolute reference that any other calibrated system would recreate given the scene and dB level. Thus, listening to something -10 to -15 dB now means something to me. Great, great explanation.

Now... it's obvious that the submersive will easily overpower my other speakers, and I guess this was my concern. Am I correct in assuming that a big driver (or any driver for that matter) requires some minimum juice to get it moving efficiently? If I have to crank down the submersive, will it not be as tight and responsive when compared to running it at even half for 75% of its capacity? I really have no idea how speakers work, but it seems that it could become sluggish moving such a big cone around if it's underpowered. Another quick example... I've heard wonderful things about the triple 12 HT speakers (also designed, I think, by Mark), and they have a power rating of up to 1600 watts. Will my 140w Onkyo even make these things move??? The Onkyo does allow you to double the wattage to the front two channels, but even 280w seems low.

Mike--no problem at all on the graphs and curves--I really appreciate all of your input! The curves make quite a bit of sense, but interpreting them boggles my mind. In those posts the guy shows a curve that concerns him, so he makes a few adjustments and "solves" his problem. The resulting curve has the same unevenness, just in diff spots, and he's content. I'm assuming that you want your dB output from 20 hz to 20k hz to look like a dead man's EKG--correct? And then the inevitable drop-off at some point below 20 hz.

Anyway, if I'm going to start dropping $2k for speakers (which, for some, is a drop in the bucket, but for me is almost unimaginable!) I need to face my demons and learn how to tune these things to get the output I'm paying for.
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calentz

 
    Yes, it would take a minimum - but not as you imply. (Even the old DuKane ion tweeter would have taken some power to move the air it - no cone) I would hope the design and execution would enable the Seaton speakers to "play softly" without being "sluggish".
     I have just purchased TWO Submersives & THREE Catalysts to be used temporarily in my bedroom until my HT room can be rebuilt. (I have requested help in the room design here) 8000 watts in a 2000cf room & I don't anticipate a problem playing at less than max output.

Carl

Carl
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DACS4

Mark_Seaton wrote:
DACS4 wrote:
Hey guys. I've been up here a bit and continue to read up on the Submersive. As a current PB13 owner we are more than happy with bass in our 2000 cubic foot finished basement.  Previous subs include the MFW15, Def tech Supercube Reference, and the older SVS PC Ultra (12) The PB13 is, by far, the best sub we've ever had in our setup.  I can't help but wonder if the Submersive will produce even better results in our setup/room.

So the obvious diffs here are:

- ported SVS vs. Sealed Submersive
- one 13" driver vs. two 15 inch
- SVS amp vs. Submersive amp

Our PB13 is located in the right front corner of the room.  Since it's a finished basement....concrete floor and walls all around.  The room has only 1 opening to the stairwell.

Can we expect a significant enough improvement to justify the $500 diff. Expecting i can sell our 4 month old PB13 for nearly what we paid.
Given the almost sealed room., the small size(ie. 2000 cubic ft.), and corner placement do people think there is a good enough argument here to plant the seed with the wife?  I am always upgrading stuff but have really settled in and decided to not change the following;

- Rocket 850 fronts
- Rocket BIGFOOT Center
- Rocket RS300 surrounds
- Cinenova Grande 5 amp

The PB13 is expendable but only if the diff is $500 or less and the improvement is really noticeable. WAF is a bit of a concern but if it truly makes a difference I think I can make this work.

Any and all feedback is most welcomed here.

Thanks,

Dave


Hi Dave,

I have been checking in and seeing the very useful responses from others here while working to get more SubMersives and speakers shipped.

I do believe that in a room such as yours there would be a notable advantage to the SubMersive, especially in overall intensity of the sound and that ever illusive, subjective "attack."  The VLF difference is there as well, but more as a sneaky, subtle surprise that you enjoy as a nice addition, not as the primary reason for owning the SubMersive.  The subtle, subjective impression of what sounds like a "bottomless" extension in a small room is more noticed as a sense of ease, immediacy and larger scale than a huge increase in VLF. 

Of course I guess you can shelf up the low end 10dB and get even more of the deep stuff, but that wasn't a primary goal when the SubMersive was conceived.

Hope that helps!


Hi Mark...I'm a little late here but yes..this does help.  I saw a few pics of the veneer finishes which has me excited I must say.  It brings the WAF into play and gives me more ammo to potentially go for the Submersive.  The price diff between the PB13 and Submersive has me in a pinch right now. I'm going to keep my eye's open for more veneer samples and try to start a little Submersive fund on the side.

Thank you to many others too up here who have replied. Your feedback and comments have been very helpful. 

For now..I will continue to enjoy our PB13 but will be very much considering a Submersive in the future.
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