Mark_Seaton Show full post »
airboyd
I ordered the F2 and then crossed paths with it as it went out for delivery and I went across the country for a 4 day business trip. UPS delivered it unscathed. Packaging is great. I found once I got it out the box, it really wasn't that hard to pick up. The taller design makes it easy to grab a hold of. I suspect the regular is a little harder to pick up, but I found this useful in placing it.

I further complicated my set-up by adding two more speakers to my 5.1 at the same time. My room probably isn't quite big enough for 7.1, but they were a good deal and fairly well matched. I spent most of Saturday moving speakers and trying to get the rears and sides sorted out and then finally got to the F2.

I have an Anthem D2 with ARC and, in spite or setting the levels with an SPL, kept giving me readings below 70db on my frequency charts. It took me three full cycles through the set-up to figure out that the microphone height was a little lower than I normally set it causing a lower reading than 75db across all the speakers. I'd read that microphone height  was important but didn't really notice before.

I started with my F2 at 11. It was delivered with the S2 button "out" and we often listen at -15 or so in the evening. That seemed to be appropriate for normal listening and who could not resist setting it to 11? The ARC then set it to -8.0db for both music and movie modes. I haven't changed those yet and the sub is set to Flat in ARC advanced with the LFE  bypass turned off.

I've got a bit of a dip around 60hz, but there's no where else in the front to move it too and will decide if the rear of the room will work later.

One of the primary goals I had was to restore some sound I was missing in my older sub to specific things I knew I was missing. I have the DVD-A of the Blue Man Group Audio. While the bass was good from my old sub was now missing both the feel and the boom of the "Big Drum." As one of the first disks I put in, I was glad to have that restored. Even at -40 (guests came over) the Big Drum was distinct in the audio. I turned it down more and you could still distinguish the Big Drum.

I'm getting to music and movie demos today and will update my thoughts later. The addition of a newborn to the home is slowing down my test progress (...but really dear, LFE is soothing to the baby...)

So, I've got more work to do and will try and post an update later.

Here's my ARC for my room with the F2 in it's most "aesthetic" position.

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airboyd
I finally had time to lift the F2 over the couch and try it on the rear wall. the only space I have left in the room. I started at the rear right and moved it across the back to the left until I got the best "live" slope in the Anthem ARC.

So, I got rid of the huge dip at 60Hz in the above post but I'm getting a weird roll-off down near 20Hz now. It sounds fine and takes 10, 15, 20 Hz tones that vibrate the couch. 

I've posted on an Anthem page but I'm wondering since the rears exhibit the same thing (behind the couch) if it's not just the mic positioning? I've got the Anthem set to Flat for the sub, so (in theory) it's not adjusting anything below 20 Hz. DSP Program 2.

The links below the little pics are the larger images.



http://cdn.avsforum.com/7/72/72a52665_ScreenShot2012-12-19at9.19.20AM.png



http://cdn.avsforum.com/5/5c/5cbf5a28_ScreenShot2012-12-19at9.19.29AM.png

This is the Auto setting for the ARC, except I changed the Sub to Flat



http://cdn.avsforum.com/d/d5/d5d6fa9a_ScreenShot2012-12-19at9.19.37AM.png

Any thoughts appreciated. 

Continuing the installation and set-up.

I moved the F2 until I had the graph that most closely represented a "normal" curve. It's now placed away from the rear wall a few inches between the Left Rear and Left Surround. That's the only place that didn't have weird dips or other oddities other than that low end drop off.

Watched War Horse on D*TV last night. I now understand the "scared" comments I see on some of the thread posts. There's some good LFE on it that is positional to the movie and seems mixed well. The close-up gunshot (putting horse down) was behind and to the right in the scene. We felt the shot and it seemed to come from middle right couch-rear. The early shelling by the windmill farm was far off the left almost outside my room. The machine gun fire in the open field thudded into the chairs and then there's not much to be said about the shelling in The Somme scene in no mans land during the charge. 

All of this was at -16.5 and it was pretty intense. I'm not sure when I'm going to find time to run it up to reference but I have Master And Commander ready to go...
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xMEATx
^^
I'm curious, did ARC set your sub crossover to 85?
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airboyd
xMEATx wrote:
^^ I'm curious, did ARC set your sub crossover to 85?


Yes, those are all the ARC "auto" setting numbers. In the original location with the bad dip it set 120.

The back wall (huge window in the middle of it) is the only location I can move it along. The side location made that horrible 65Hz dip in the other chart. I only have around 3ft behind the couch to work with. The extra 2 speakers are probably overkill for the 7.1, but they were a good deal and I'm trying it out. It leaves me with less space than before.

Obviously, the F2 puts out enough SPL . I'm wondering if it's all too much for the ARC or if it's a Mic placement issue?

The Mic is very picky in some room locations. When I moved it to the rear the F2 became more near field and I ran the the dial down to -21 to start. The ARC claimed it couldn't hear the sub in Position 2, so I wound it back up again knowing the ARC could lower it later. I'm running -11 or -12 again in PGM 2 with the ARC reducing both music and movies by 7.5dB, so that seems acceptable to me. It was 6.5dB the other day, but I changed some speaker distances to more accurately reflect the sub move.

I got a mundane response from Anthem: "The dip in response can only be caused by the room acoustics in that position combined with the subwoofers own output capability." The continuing conversation with tech support seems to imply that Anthem doesn't attempt to apply much correction under 30Hz because the wavelengths are larger than many rooms they are going into in the home theater. - Paraphrased email exchange - So, now I get to learn about room acoustics 

If it were up to me, I'd probably run my mains lower, but I'm trying to spend a few days listening the "Anthem" way, which also takes the load off for movies. This is probably better for the room, but I haven't decided yet. It takes time to adjust. I've loaded a new music setup of 25 Hz for the mains and it auto assigned 25Hz for the crossover. I'll listen to that today.

I have B&W Matrix 802 S3's biwired with a Sunfire Signature Series II (1250 Watts into 4 Ohms which is the 802's nominal impedance). They easily reproduce deep bass and the B&W's factory "stats" are 4th order down to 25Hz. I have the special B&W Bass Alignment Filter which would bring them down to 17.5Hz! (Factory numbers) but it's only RCA and I have everything run through XLR. Any time I introduce an RCA, I get horrible hum.The sides are Matrix 805 and Rears are CDM 7NTs with a Matrix HTM for a center. 

So, I've got all really capable speakers for this specific room. I have little to no space to move any of the speakers in the front and some space in the rear. I had been running them essentially full with my old Sunfire Sub. The SubM F2 is a whole different level and I'm not sure where to begin fixing the issues...

Current listening this week and with knowledge that listening fatigue sets in after about 3 hours....

5.1 sources sound great. Music can be a bit much, but it really depended on the recording, and it's still a learning process as I'm getting used to the new sound. TV is all over the place! Clearly the source is the issue with most of these. I was watching Top Gear last night and was amazed I could hear the interior car noise when driving, but the deeper voices of two of the presenters was "leaking" through into the sub or rears and localizing it. I am 99.999% sure that the sound mixing is wrong in the show and not the set-up. I suspect a Dolby or Stereo up-mixed to 5.1 for D*TV to beam down. 

I ran the Darla Chapter at 0 yesterday and I heard the house respond with some noises. I lowered the volume. Master and Commander at -10...check. Black Hawk Down at -10...check. I know the sound is coming out fine and I can feel it. I know my room isn't particularly large, it's roughly 23x16 with 1 exterior door, 3 windows and a large opening to the rest of the house through a hallway. I don't know much about wave lengths (yet...), as it hadn't been a problem before. Is it a 27Hz standing wave or the ARC confused by the couch, room or something else? I recall reading that the Audessey had some issues with SubM's in PGM1, but that could be fixed by using PGM2. 

Either way, I'm guessing some kind of treatment is probably next...

I did 5-8 new measurements this week and am looking for ideas to sort out my issues before breaking the Mic out for another one. I'm not at the frustration point yet, but after lifting the F2 over the seats into the back and moving it along the floor while trying to find the best response for 3 hours the other night, I'm ready for a break.

Am I trying too hard for a "perfect" curve knowing I can feel and see the sub 20Hz coming out of it or am I actually losing sound information from the Sub based on the room?

Room shape roughly like this with end tables, coffee table etc strewn around the room.

                    |wide hall|
                    |         |
____________________|         |
|EQUIP  Lm  TV/C  Rm          |
|                             |<window
|<door                        |
|                             |
|                          c  |
|                          o  |
|<fireplace                u  |
|                          c  |
|                          h  |
|                             |
|                             |<window
|   theater style seating     |
|Ls                         Rs|
|                             |
|  Sub Lr             Rr      |
|_____________________________|
           window

All speakers are around 6" or more away from the wall surfaces
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airboyd
Well, I moved the F2 as much as possible towards the middle rear offset left of center. It's the closest I could get to a "perfect" curve. I let the ARC lower the curve instead of trying to boost it. As it's flat response below 20Hz, I'm not sure it matters. The ARC is doing weird things as I had a calibrated 75db before I started. I'm ignoring that now all things being equal.

I ended up with the F2 at 16 and the ARC set -9.5 in the Anthem. I left all crossovers where the ARC set them. 



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Thought I'd move the drivers around a bit...

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hifiaudio2
I watched this on my laptop and didn't hear the bass at all.  Maybe you need to turn it up.
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airboyd
hifiaudio2 wrote:
I watched this on my laptop and didn't hear the bass at all.  Maybe you need to turn it up.


That's pretty funny. I actually have a much better song for testing, but I trusted a Google search for this one. It's not the normal music I listen too, but I have a handful of Miami-syle bass tunes and some other woofer tests collected over the years. The most striking example so far has been 3 Kinds Of Bass - Illegal Bass by Bass Outlaws. It was one of those Submersive tracks that surprises you. I might record that one later just for fun, but not without earplugs or small children in the house. I don't think this was a great choice on Google's part but it is nice to know that playing (36hz, 34hz, 33hz, 31hz, 17hz, and 7hz) has a distinct result from a stereo track vs an LFE track. I'd be interested to see what happens if these guys ever took advantage of a 5.1 encoded 2.1 mix utilizing the LFE.

I like that it clearly shows the woofer excursion and the fact the F2 basically stays stationary. My old Sunfire Sub would walk all over the place trying to do this at 0. I had the Sunfire on three sets of isolation feet, a carpet and shelf roll under the carpet on a wood floor. There's a small glint of movement in the video, but the video stand was also vibrating heavily from the bass. I might try and dial up the Submersive sometime just to see what happens but calibrated 0 was a good early test showing that the box is a stationary and isolated from the floor as one could possibly be. Some of the bass intensive Bjork tracks used to sound un-naturally boomy with my old sub, but that's gone with the F2. I've really resisted the urge to tweak it too much before spending some time listening to it.

I also downloaded The Rotary Woofer super-duper low frequency test, but it's not really the same kind of thing. As it goes down the scale the woofer just thumps back and forth a few inches with around around a one second interval. It's just not the right kind of demo for these. So I'm sticking with "normal" low bass songs...
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BrolicBeast
Does anyone know if the F2's can be stacked?  I'm started to get ideas...involving two more Submersive F2's. 
Home Theater is a Way of Life
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iostinato
Mark beat you to it.

Hold on for the F4....
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BrolicBeast
iostinato wrote:
Mark beat you to it.

Hold on for the F4....


Yeah, he was telling me about it at AXPONA! But I already own two F2's, so it would be much cheaper to buy two more F2's since I'm half-way there (conceptually).
Home Theater is a Way of Life
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hifiaudio2
Two more F2s in Black Maple on their way to me today!!  

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AidenL
I'm thinking of buying a pair of these for my 17ft x 12 ft x 8 ft high room.

Just comparing to the new PSA S3000 also - anyone have any experience of both? I know the Seaton amps are more powerful if the I+ is used?
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rossandwendy

Resurrecting this old thread...

I have fallen head over heels in love with the looks and form factor of the F2. Anyone using a pair as left/right speaker stands?

Cheers,

Ross

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calentz
I am using my two SubMs as stands for my L&R Cat12Cs.
Carl
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audioguy
I have owned (and still do) and number of Seaton subs and have calibrated for others Seaton subs (big honkin' dual 18's in a ported enclosure tuned to 11HZ) and other subs as well.  Don't waste your time on any other sub. His go lower (usually significantly) , are cleaner and more articulate, are MUCH better with music and have an upper bass punch that is without equal.  You will not be disappointed, I promise.
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