mojomike
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to see a shootout between the various Seaton sub designs all at a similar price-point. ($2000)

BMF-1
vs.
SUBmersive1
vs.
4 x MFW-15

Anyone else feel the same way?
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dave
I've got big power available, and a big backyard. Let me know when to fire up the grill Mark!
This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
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Mark_Seaton
mojomike wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to see a shootout between the various Seaton sub designs all at a similar price-point. ($2000)

BMF-1
vs.
SUBmersive1
vs.
4 x MFW-15

Anyone else feel the same way?


Ahh...  Much like the hopeless romantic, subwoofer enthusiasts search for the elusive "obvious answer" to what is "best."

A measurement shootout will only tell you so much, and you can usually expect that in one way or another, the largest option will pull ahead.  4 MFW-15s will certainly be the loudest and overall most powerful, while also being the largest 2-kilobuck solution, but not extend quite as deep as the BMF, and certainly not as deep as the SubMersive generally digs in real rooms.

In the end, the advantage will always depend on listening environment, your specific use, preferences, and physical limitations within the space.  A smaller room could very well show the SubMersive the preferred winner, where the BMF has a very silky sound due to the "distortion trap" effect of the front chamber and PR, where it will get plenty low and deliver below 25Hz in larger rooms more easily than a single SubMersive.  The SubMersive still has some very notable advantages once you start counting more than dollars and add multiple subwoofers.  Being a sealed sub, the SubMersive's low frequency exention is really only limited by how loud you listen and how many you are willing to place in your room.  The SubMersive also has the least compression within it's maximum limits (although the BMF should be very close).

All of the three share certain benefits and goals, but all use very different means to get there and are optimized differently.  I wouldn't have designed each if I didn't think they had worthwhile and unique qualities.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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mojomike
What makes this comparison interesting is that there are three distinctly different designs by the same designer, made for different market niches and they all happen to be entering the field within a close timeframe. The shootout would serve to highlight their similarities, differences, and relative strengths.

Lets' face it: We sub guys love a good shootout!
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Fatawan

Why IS it that subwoofer fanatics are most interested in shootouts? Mark constantly preaches that different subs are designed for different applications, yet I am with you mojomike, MORE SHOOTOUTS!!!!

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mojomike
I don't know the answer, buddy. It's some kind of perverse desire, these shootouts are. Can't fully explain it


                                            
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Mark_Seaton
Fatawan wrote:
Why IS it that subwoofer fanatics are most interested in shootouts? Mark constantly preaches that different subs are designed for different applications, yet I am with you mojomike, MORE SHOOTOUTS!!!!


It is an interesting topic, and I could be overly optomistic and think we just might be able to have some educational discussion on the topic here.  One can dream...

One of the differentiators most listeners will never grasp until they hear it themselves is that ever-difficult decision of output vs. extension.  Once you are strong and dynamic to 25Hz, adding more extension can be a wonderful thing.  At the same time, if users will rarely use more than 1 or 2 of the subwoofers in a room, and they are likely to use them in larger rooms, a subwoofer that's flat to 12Hz isn't terribly useful if you're 6-12dB short of the levels you might like in the higher content 25-80Hz region.

Further complicating the matter is the romance of the sub-20Hz region.  If you get some, you will very likely want more.   You will then likely start exploring the next limit of your system, whether it be the lowest frequencies or the complimenting dynamics of your main speakers.  The only real truth is that with dynamic enough content, there is no such thing as too much.  There is only "enough" to expose the next weakness in the chain.

To be clear, this isn't all about SPL.  This is about dynamic linearity and minimizing the audibility of the offenses that may occur.  To that end the matter of how a device does its thing can be as important as how loudly it does it.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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mojomike

What I was calling a shootout, I wasn't just hoping for an SPL contest. Maybe I'm using the phrase incorrectly. What I was hoping for was a direct comparison of several aspects of performance and maybe even a double-blind listening test as well.

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dave
Mark_Seaton wrote:
To be clear, this isn't all about SPL.  This is about dynamic linearity and minimizing the audibility of the offenses that may occur.  To that end the matter of how a device does its thing can be as important as how loudly it does it.


If you want, we can call it a halfspace measurement party then.

You bring the TEF, I'll pay the electric bill.
This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
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Ilkka
I have told Mark that his subs (both own and AV123's) have a standing invitation to my measuring session (I don't want to call it a shootout).

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Mark_Seaton

Ilkka wrote:
I have told Mark that his subs (both own and AV123's) have a standing invitation to my measuring session (I don't want to call it a shootout).

Great to have you here Ilkka,

Indeed, I look forward to having you run some of my designs through your extensive testing regiment.  I do still have considerable work going on with users and third parties that you won't see on the common internet forums.  I'm also not very good at "good enough" if I know I can make something better, so my own products have been subject to some delays in addressing details that few notice other than myself (and probably Ilkka  .
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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nobbie
I vote for a shootout, as well. Not so much to see which Seaton design wins, but just to see (and experience) them all in one place. I'm pretty set on the BMF-1 for my situation. But, I wouldn't be averse to considering the Sub-mersive, either.

P.S. Mark, was totally great meeting you at Andy's Memorial Day weekend. I'm sorry we didn't have time to chat more. I was too grumpy from not winning anything in the raffle!

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Fatawan

Mark_Seaton wrote:

It is an interesting topic, and I could be overly optomistic and think we just might be able to have some educational discussion on the topic here.  One can dream...


Let's start with the "target market" for a few subs, a kind of "why are we making this sub?" discussion. What kind of thinking went on at AV123, for instance, to produce an MFW-15, and a BMF-1, while the Submersive exists already. Also, as far as Seaton Sound goes, what does the Submersive II do for someone vs. a single or multiple Submersives? In other words, what key words come up when someone calls you and asks for your opinion on which sub they should buy from among your growing stable of subs?
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Mark_Seaton
Fatawan wrote:
Mark_Seaton wrote:

It is an interesting topic, and I could be overly optomistic and think we just might be able to have some educational discussion on the topic here.  One can dream...


Let's start with the "target market" for a few subs, a kind of "why are we making this sub?" discussion. What kind of thinking went on at AV123, for instance, to produce an MFW-15, and a BMF-1, while the Submersive exists already. Also, as far as Seaton Sound goes, what does the Submersive II do for someone vs. a single or multiple Submersives? In other words, what key words come up when someone calls you and asks for your opinion on which sub they should buy from among your growing stable of subs?


Hi Fatawan,

I think that is a very good idea.  I'll start on this later this week as things are pretty hectic right now.  Of course others will have their own priorities and preferences that deviate from my primary intent when designing the products, but I do expect all of the subs to be used in many different ways.  There are decisions to make with every product that will set ultimate limits to performance, and working within those limits and how they combine with the room and system helps to more clearly define why you might choose each of the designs.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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MikeDuke
I can be %100 honest here.  I was driven to the SubMersive1 by Ed M.   I told him what I was planing on doing and he said that for my room he would seriously consider the SubMersive.  That was enough for me.  Then I did my research and started talking with Mark.  Space wise anything bigger was a no-go.  So the BMF would not work and was not recommended.  I am one happy camper now.
I simply love this stuff.
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cruzmisl
Clearly the Submersive is the best.......since I just bought one

Seriously though, the BMF is very large and the MFW's are a ways off. I also don't think I'd have the room for two MFW's. Either way I'll keep everyone posted when it arrives.  

We'll see what gets delivered first, my new 850's or the Submersive (your running out of time Mark)

I haven't told the wife about all this yet, hopefully I won't be setting up my home theater in the shed
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MikeDuke
cruzmisl wrote:
Clearly the Submersive is the best.......since I just bought one

Seriously though, the BMF is very large and the MFW's are a ways off. I also don't think I'd have the room for two MFW's. Either way I'll keep everyone posted when it arrives.  

We'll see what gets delivered first, my new 850's or the Submersive (your running out of time Mark)

I haven't told the wife about all this yet, hopefully I won't be setting up my home theater in the shed

Congrats.  That looks to be a nice setup you will have.  Looking forward to your thoughts.  That is, if you are still around after the wife finds out
I simply love this stuff.
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Fatawan

cruzmisl wrote:

I haven't told the wife about all this yet, hopefully I won't be setting up my home theater in the shed

Maybe the BMF would be better then as you could always live inside it.
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cruzmisl

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jlanzy
I vote for a shootout, as well. Not so much to see which Seaton design wins, but just to see (and experience) them all in one place. I'm pretty set on the BMF-1 for my situation. But, I wouldn't be averse to considering the Sub-mersive, either.

I double that!  For me, it would simply be the ability to hear several competitive products and let my ears do the deciding since no amount of description can really tell you if that is the sound you like or want.
jlanzy
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