Boydfp
Hi everybody.  I'm new to this forum and I'm planning on purchasing a new subwoofer in about six months.  I have a 7000 cubic foot space to fill and a $2500 budget.

I'm a fan of tight bass with plenty of slam and it sounds like the Submersive will fit the bill.

However I'm concerned about the ability of a single Submersive to fill this space and multiples are outside of what I can spend.

How will a Submersive perform in this size space?  Do I need to be looking at a large ported design instead?
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Mark_Seaton
Boydfp wrote:
Hi everybody.  I'm new to this forum and I'm planning on purchasing a new subwoofer in about six months.  I have a 7000 cubic foot space to fill and a $2500 budget.

I'm a fan of tight bass with plenty of slam and it sounds like the Submersive will fit the bill.

However I'm concerned about the ability of a single Submersive to fill this space and multiples are outside of what I can spend.

How will a Submersive perform in this size space?  Do I need to be looking at a large ported design instead?


Hi Boydfp,

The problem in answering such questions is that answers generally are qualified with "all else being equal" and in the real world things aren't often equal.

Could you give us a little more info on the configuration, construction and dimensions of your 7,000 cu.ft. of listening space?  Do you have any points of reference on subwoofer performance you have heard personally or are looking to equal or exceed?

For many listeners, a single SubMersive in a 7000 cu.ft. common living space might scare most and leave them worrying about damaging glassware in the vicinity and might find a SubMersive a bit frightening, but in a good way.   At the same time others with very solidly constructed rooms or basements and greater expectations from experience with more capable systems will want a second SubMersive to better satisfy the appetite.

With some of the above questions answered we could have higher confidence in an answer, but I suspect a single SubMersive would do quite well.  The bigger question comes back to what are the alternatives you can justify fitting in the space.  The Terraform XL will be ready within a month, and then the Terraform some time after.  The Terraform XL matches the huge upper bass impact and slam of the SubMersive and adds tremendously to the lower octave...  in ~3x the size.  The Terraform falls in between with more of the really deep stuff, and not quite the upper octave headroom, making it well suited for larger and very open rooms.  The Terraform will start pushing the limit of your posted budget, but the best solution will depend on the application.

You might also want to check out this response I posted in the SubMersive thread at AVS to a related question.

Hope that helps some!
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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Boydfp

Mark:

I apologize for the length of this response but I wanted to error on the side of giving you too much information rather than too little.

The space I'm describing consists of an 17'x18' family room which borders a 15' (same direction as 17' width of familiy room) x10' dinette which in turn borders a 15' (same direction as 17' dimension of family room) x16' kitchen.  The entire space has a 10' ceiling and is constructed on a concrete slab foundation.  The space is not a perfect rectangle (some outside walls go out further in the family room) but it is pretty close.

The family room is on one end of this space and has a 14' wide by 8' tall opening to the dinette.  Between the dinette and the kitchen are two openings, a 5 and 1/2' wide by 5 and 1/2' tall opening over a counter and an 8' tall by 4' wide entrance to the kitchen.  There is also a 3' wide by 8' tall opening from the Dinette to a space that contains the living room and dining room.

When I positioned my subwoofer Brian Pape of GIK Accoustics suggested I actually position it in odd multiples of length (1/3, 1/5, 1/7 etc) of the distance between end family room wall and this kitchen half wall feeling it was more important than the far kitchen wall.  His advice was good and cleaned up the sound of my sub compared to when it was located in one of the room corners.

Now back to the family room.  Centered on the 18' wide wall is a 2' deep x 10' wide x 8' tall entertainment space which contains my tv and equipment.  My speakers are actually out into the room about 2 and 1/2' in front of this opening (I have a great wife).  The subwoofer is just to the right of this opening adjacent to the short 2' wall separating the family room from the dinette.  I have a 13' wide sectional that sits 3 and 1/2' from the back wall and 2 and 1/2' from the end family room wall and 2 and 1/2' from the opening to the dinette.  This seating position places me about 10' from my subwoofer and about 8' from my three front speakers.  (I find placing these speakers more nearfield lessens the impact of the room on the higher frequencies.)

Lots of windows all 8' tall.  Two walls of the family room are all windows and there are two tall windows on either side of the entertainment opening.  One wall of the Dinette is also all windows.  I have heard windows can cause loss of bass energy. 

Also, there are no room treatments.  I plan on purchasing an Anti-mode 8033 with my subwoofer and will eventually add room treatments.

My experiences with subwoofers are pretty dated going back 12 years or so to when I purchased my subwoofer.  I have an ADS Sub 12 which retailed for $1900 back then.  It is the often maligned band pass design.  The enclosure is 19" tall, 17" wide and 17" deep with a single triangular opening in the front.  It contains a 12" driver and a 350 watt amp.  (I'm sure the Submersive could destroy it.)

When I purchased this subwoofer I compared this model to the Velodynes in the same price range and found this design to be as clean as the Velodynes but to hit much harder. 

I also had a bit of subwoofer shootout with my friends, one of whom was also buying a new sub.  I had also purchased a Klipsch SW-15 and my friends brought over an M&K MX-5000 and M&K MX-200.  I preferred the clean sound of the ADS to any of these subwoofers.  My other friend ended up purchasing the MX-5000 which had lots of punch but didn't sound quite as clean to my ears.

I owned the Klipsch and so ran it for a while longer in my home after our shootout.  The Klipsch did one thing that none of the other subwoofers could match (not even the MX-5000).  There is some music in the film Hook (the Robin Williams Peter Pan movie) where they are hitting a certain drum with the music.  When this drum hit the Klipsch would literally shake the framing of the house.  I absolutely loved this effect but there other tiimes when what the Klipsch did in the upper bass would drive me out of the room.  It was a love/hate relationship.  To be fair I probably didn't understand quite as much about placement as I do now but the ADS in the same position did not cause this objectionable sound. 

The Klipsch was a fairly large box (26" tall by 18" wide by almost 20" deep) with a 15" bass reflex enclosure and a 15" passive radiator driven by a 200 watt amp.  Its frequency response only went to 27 Hz at -3 dB.  The specs claim a max output of 110 dB but didn't state at what frequency.  I ended up returning the Klipsch and keeping the ADS.  I have since moved to a larger house and the ADS doesn't have the same impact it had in the smaller family room at my other house.

Both my wife and I love strong, impactful bass.  She loves to hear the strong bass with the THX opening to movies but we haven't felt that since getting this new larger home.  She lets me do whatever I want in the family room (the living room is off limits) and is even Ok with a sub as large as the ED A7-900.  I have the space and am perfectly Ok with using a large enclosure to gain maximum value within my budget.  (I do get concerned about moving around excessive weight and the near 400 pounds of the A7-900 is a little scary.  250 pounds would be much more reasonable.)

I listen to some music (10% music versus 90% home theater) and have a few SACDs.  I like my bass to be tight.  After my experience with the Klipsch I was a little leary of how tight ported subs could sound.  However, in reading Craigsub's list the larger ported subs outperformed some rather expensive sealed designs (Fathoms) on music.

For the rest of my system I have some Sony speakers (SS-M7s with matching center), inceiling Speakercraft surrounds, and Outlaw 770 amp and a Marantz AV8003 preamp.  The Sony speakers (designed and built in the US by an ex-Polk engineer) are fairly inefficient, 86 dB per watt.  Even with the power of the amp (200 watt in 8 ohms) I'm not sure they could keep up with a larger sub although they have no problem now. 

I love these speakers and just returned some Rocket 850s with matching center because to my ears they weren't in the same category.  I know Sony is not known for making great speakers but when the Sony SS-M9s came out (next model up) Stereophile put them on the cover with the phrase "Hell has just frozen over".  They received a high class B rating.

Budget wise I could probably push up another $300 or so to $2800 but don't want to go much higher as I probably need to purchase a sub EQ as well.

I've rambled on long enough and I'm sorry for the length of this response.  Please let me know if you have any other questions and thanks so much for your help.

Larry

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mfine
Tough call, but I would expect a single SubMersive to more than satisfy you.  The 10 feet to the sub suggests that you will have PLENTY of output above 30 hz.  Much more than you are used to, more than the SW-15 by a good margin.  The fact that the primary room is not that big and enclosed on 3 sides (5 out of 6 if you count the floor and ceiling) also makes me think you will have enough room gain to get good extension despite the additional space of the two adjoining rooms.  Really you have a 3000 cuft room with a large opening.  My best guess is that you will be scared by what the SubMersive can do!

My other thought is that with the anitmode in the mix you may also (if necessary) be able to try different possitions to get better room reinforcement without much sacrifice throughout the range like you had with (I assume) no EQ.

When it comes to tight hard hitting bass, the SubMersive is king until you start spending much more $$$$ and surrending much more space.   



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Boydfp
Thanks mfine.  You make some good points.  I have to admit I don't understand how to calculate room gain but your statement of strong response above 30 Hz is comforting, especially since I'm a big fan of mid-bass slam.

Its difficult when you can't hear the sub first hand as I like to trust my own hears, but this is the case with all the other subs I'm considering (e.g. Dual Epik Dynasties, Conquest (if it becomes available again), ED A7-900).  The value offered by the ID companies can' t be ignored.

Larry
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calentz

Boydfp wrote:
Thanks mfine.  You make some good points.  I have to admit I don't understand how to calculate room gain but your statement of strong response above 30 Hz is comforting, especially since I'm a big fan of mid-bass slam.

Its difficult when you can't hear the sub first hand as I like to trust my own hears, but this is the case with all the other subs I'm considering (e.g. Dual Epik Dynasties, Conquest (if it becomes available again), ED A7-900).  The value offered by the ID companies can' t be ignored.

Larry

Why don't you check out the NCal meet? http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3489914

Carl

Carl
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Boydfp
Calentz:

I'm actually in Northern California but I thought this meet was for people on the forum who knew each other.  I don't want to bust in on someone else's party.

Larry
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Mark_Seaton
Boydfp wrote:
Calentz:

I'm actually in Northern California but I thought this meet was for people on the forum who knew each other.  I don't want to bust in on someone else's party.

Larry


Hi Larry,

I made a quick edit as I guess I can see where the statement "All are welcome."  After the SubMersive owner mention might be confused, although the statements were separate.  You are definitely welcome to join.  I'm thinking I may send a SubMersive out as well for show & tell.

Hope to see you at the event.  These are always a lot of fun and it should be a fun crowd.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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Boyfp
Mark:

Thanks for the clarification.  I plan on attending this meet and look forward to meeting you.  I'm excited that you may send out a Submersive.  I would love to hear one first hand.

I know you're extremely busy but when you get a chance I would be interested in your assessment as to how a Submersive would perform in my room.  Thanks.

Larry
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