hifiaudio2
I am playing around with an Emotiva UMC-200 and it has separate crossover slope options for the mains and subs.  Should I select a 12db crossover for both (at 80hz) or 24db for both?  Or even a different one for each for some reason?

I haven't had a processor that had this selection before.

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hifiaudio2
No thoughts?
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audioguy
The natural rolloff of the Cat12 is 1s 12db per octave starting about 65 hz but will differ a bit depending on how it interacts with your room. That is how it appeared on my frequency plots (without correction) from OmniMIc and Mark confirmed that after the fact.

So I would start with that and then experiment. I think you have OmniMic, so experiment and see (and hear) what you like.

I use to have the Theta Casablanca and it not only had crossover slope selection, but also offered three different slope types. I had no measuring gear when I had the Theta so I did all by ear!!
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hifiaudio2
Ok great, thanks.  Do "typical"  processors,  like my Marantz and your Integra use 12dB slopes as an (unseen) default  or do we know?  Since we don't get the choice on those I have never really though about it.  I have been using 80hz crossover points for my Cats and all surrounds.  I am not sure if that was something I read Mark recommend a while back or not.  I can certainly try lower and see (or rather hear) what happens.
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audioguy
hifiaudio2 wrote:
Ok great, thanks.  Do "typical"  processors,  like my Marantz and your Integra use 12dB slopes as an (unseen) default  or do we know?  Since we don't get the choice on those I have never really though about it.  I have been using 80hz crossover points for my Cats and all surrounds.  I am not sure if that was something I read Mark recommend a while back or not.  I can certainly try lower and see (or rather hear) what happens.


I think they use 12db but I'm not sure. I actually use 80hz as a crossover point for everything except my center. It is in a screen wall so the lower end is really lifted, I use 40hz since it keeps vocal sounding more accurate if I chose to boost the bass (which I do by about 2 db's for action flicks). At 80hz for the center, vocals can get a bit chesty on occasion.

Since you are way ahead of me on the XMC list, please be sure to share your thoughts once you get it up and running. I am really hoping it is a good piece. While I can get the Datasat at a (relatively)great price, I really don't want to plunk down that kind of coin for an SSP.
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hifiaudio2
Yeah I definitely will.  Right now I am trying to go through various products to find what I think will be acceptable and convenient for listening to music while sitting in my theater chair.   The Marantz had an app and could get FLAC files over my wired network from my NAS.  The XMC cannot do that (yet?) so I need something else.  Trying a Chromecast now, but not sure about the possibility of the music being degraded by a) wifi or b) the HDMI interface, which I am being told is high jitter.

On topic,  since my Cats are all in a baffle wall, I wonder if I should lower them down into the 40 -60 hz range as well.  
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audioguy
Change your processor to stereo (no subs) then run OmniMic ( or whatever u r using) without Audyssey and you will be able to determine what kind of output u r getting below 80hz and then u can decide. I would NOT lower the xover of the LR to below 80hz no matter what the plot looked like but that's just me!!
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K1LL3M
audioguy wrote:
Change your processor to stereo (no subs) then run OmniMic ( or whatever u r using) without Audyssey and you will be able to determine what kind of output u r getting below 80hz and then u can decide. I would NOT lower the xover of the LR to below 80hz no matter what the plot looked like but that's just me!!


Why?

Interested to know as I tend to prefer a 60hz crossover for all my channels (well only where audyssey sets them below 80 anyway)
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audioguy

K1LL3M wrote:
Why? Interested to know as I tend to prefer a 60hz crossover for all my channels (well only where audyssey sets them below 80 anyway)


When I had a separate 2 channel preamp with TacT room correction, I used 65Hz for music but had the Integra set for 80hz for movies.

My logic?  Reason (1): The SubMersives (according to Mark) are every bit as capable as the woofers in the Cat12's (from an accuracy perspective) so if I am playing some kind of action movie and I want to insure I have no head room issues, I prefer to use the SubMersive in that range rather than the Cat.  Reason (2): Regardless of what Audyssey says, the response I get from OmniMic from the Cat12 (no Audyssey)  does NOT indicate that 60hz is the best place to crossover (in my room).  I might feel comfortable with 65hz or 70hz but can't see any reason to not use the SubMersives (since I have 4 of them so they don't have to work very hard)  so I use 80Hz.

For my surrounds, Audyssey recommends much lower than 80hz but for the same reasons above, I choose to use 80hz.

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K1LL3M
audioguy wrote:

K1LL3M wrote:
Why? Interested to know as I tend to prefer a 60hz crossover for all my channels (well only where audyssey sets them below 80 anyway)


When I had a separate 2 channel preamp with TacT room correction, I used 65Hz for music but had the Integra set for 80hz for movies.

My logic?  Reason (1): The SubMersives (according to Mark) are every bit as capable as the woofers in the Cat12's (from an accuracy perspective) so if I am playing some kind of action movie and I want to insure I have no head room issues, I prefer to use the SubMersive in that range rather than the Cat.  Reason (2): Regardless of what Audyssey says, the response I get from OmniMic from the Cat12 (no Audyssey)  does NOT indicate that 60hz is the best place to crossover (in my room).  I might feel comfortable with 65hz or 70hz but can't see any reason to not use the SubMersives (since I have 4 of them so they don't have to work very hard)  so I use 80Hz.

For my surrounds, Audyssey recommends much lower than 80hz but for the same reasons above, I choose to use 80hz.



Thanks for the info audioguy, appreciate the response.

I have an omnimic, but dont actually know how to use it properly so have not worked out technically what I should have things set at.

I have always just used a 60hz crossover because from some previous limited listening experiments thought it offered the best sound. But I wonder if I should be paying more attention to you guys with far more knowledge forgotten in this feild than I am likely to ever know and setting to 80hz anyway

Audyssey, sets my crossovers at full range for the LCR 12Cs and 40hz for JBL surrounds (waiting on some 8Cs surrounds to come) and then I manually changes these to all 60s, or is it 60s for LCR and 80s for surronds, will have to check that.

Is there not some benefits, subject to performance, of having sound come from the speaker it was intended for? I understand sounds below 80hz are considered to be unable to be localised, but depending on the room, a 60hz crossover could perform better?

I haven't got to building a dedicated room yet, it is on the cards for the future, so everything is in a large lounge room til them.
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audioguy
K1LL3M wrote:
Thanks for the info audioguy, appreciate the response.I have an omnimic, but dont actually know how to use it properly so have not worked out technically what I should have things set at
.

I highly, highly, highly recommend you learn how to use OmniMic.  There are many uses of it with your system to really get the most out of it.  It is really very simple and if you have some specific question, let me know. 

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Is there not some benefits, subject to performance, of having sound come from the speaker it was intended for? I understand sounds below 80hz are considered to be unable to be localised, but depending on the room, a 60hz crossover could perform better?


With your subs time aligned to the mains as Audyssey does, there should be no difference if the sound comes from the Cat or the SubMersive.  There is nothing magical about the 80Hz I used but as I said, the plots I got from OmniMic conflicted with Audyssey and I agree with OmniMic

Learn OmniMic and you will be glad you did!!
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K1LL3M
Thanks audioguy.

I will have to spend sometime woth omnimic I know. I thought it would be easier, but my measurement readings never look like anything I have seen posted so I kind of figure there is some settings/weightings/screens I need to change to get to the point where I can make sense of it.

In the meantime time, I might change everything to 80hz for a while and see how I go. The 4xF2s I have should probably be able to handle a little extra work [smile]
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hifiaudio2
I am getting a little REW help over at hometheatershack and thought I would post the thread here.  The power of 4 Submersives is getting shown off a little with the low distortion and good SPL / smoothing I am getting. 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/85202-rew-hardware-bang-buck-4.html


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audioguy
hifiaudio2 wrote:
I am getting a little REW help over at hometheatershack and thought I would post the thread here.  The power of 4 Submersives is getting shown off a little with the low distortion and good SPL / smoothing I am getting. 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/85202-rew-hardware-bang-buck-4.html




After you become an REW expert, you can train me. I will need the speaker distance calculations for both the Datasat RS20i and the XMC.

I have one of the calibrated mics they recommended (still in the box) but have never tried to learn it. I used the original version a few times but it was so complicated, I could never remember from one time to the next how to do anything.
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FOH
Searching online, there seems as if there's so many informational sources and articles,.. etc.
 

There are some nicely executed, "go-to" tutorials available for REW, here's a nice video from GIK;   
 



A blog from Polar;
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html



Ethan Winer and Nyal Mellor put this together;
http://realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm



The Shack offers a good community for help. However there's also an overwhelming amount of other support material aside from what's at HTS. The AVS Audio Theory section is a excellent example, as there's a monumental thread named;
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs.  
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1449924-simplified-rew-setup-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html



I realize many here have likely encountered these links, but I'm sure there's some that haven't seen these. REW is a powerful tool, yet one can simply use the most basic elements of it they wish. 

Thanks    
 




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hifiaudio2
I just took some nearfield measurements of my LCR.  This is about 2.5-3ft in front of the speakers (behind screen so I cant be 100% of the exact placement).  The right Catalyst rolls off sharply around 12khz.  The center does the same but comes back up around 13.5 khz.  The right speaker continues to roll off.  Is something likely wrong with it?

Here is a link to the image.  Center  = gold, right  =  green, left = purple

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k57fl4y85i2j1uh/LCR%20nearfield.PNG


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audioguy
The right speaker looks strange. It could be a bad tweeter but I would be very surprised if it were crossed over at 12k.

R u sure the mic was directly in front of the tweeter? Could the edge of the screen frame be in between the mic and speaker?

U may want to share with Mark S
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Mark_Seaton
I can confirm the speakers didn't do that in isolation when tested before leaving.  There's little to nothing in the speaker which would cause a roll off without affecting the rest of the speaker range or at least producing a scratchy/buzzing sound in operation..  There are many measurement conditions which could produce exactly as seen.

Just remember... ignorance is bliss with measurements.  Few have any idea what real speakers look like in real rooms, and viewing on a 1dB/division scale makes most anything look like the rocky mountains. [wink]
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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JohnnyV
It takes a long time of rehab before you can just go back to listening and enjoying a system once you start measuring...  You could compare it to taking the red pill or the blue pill.. can you handle the truth?  It's minimized if you keep your measurements to the subs and the integration of the subs to mains but even that can make you start to lose sleep.

Like Mark said measuring a full ranger isn't easy even with the best of measurement facilities and even then knowing what the results are telling you or aren't telling you isn't trivial.  Measurement windows and boundaries will be critical.  I think I read a long time ago that the Danley or AE guys do their measurements hoisting up high on a crane in a wide open outdoor area?? Can't quite remember..  just without a perfect anechoic chamber or ideal area it's a tough go.



 
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audioguy
JohnnyV wrote:
It takes a long time of rehab before you can just go back to listening and enjoying a system once you start measuring.


Now THAT's the truth. Since I have retired, I can not even begin to count the number of times I have measured and remeasured. Still learning about this subject but loving it.
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