KlipschHead281
Good morning,

I'm hoping to get a response from Mark specifically because the more I work on the HT the harder it is to get it to sound right.

I have been reading the "Official Audyssey" thread at the AVS forum and it states to leave subwoofer distances alone and a host of other things I have apparently been doing wrong over the years.

I spent the entire weekend following the faq to get the system dialed in and the more I worked on following the FAQ the stranger it sounds.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 (distance of 11.4ft) - Center RC-64 (distance of 11.2ft) - Front Wide 2 RP-160M (distance of 7ft), Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's ?)


Saturday was a bust, subwoofer distances were all over the map, it crossed over the mains, center and wides way too low and MultiEQ32 set itself to reference and in this mode the subs sound out of phase so I turned that off since the Marantz guide says its safe to do so plus the phase sounded better. I adjust the crossovers to 60HZ (the wife listens to the system when I'm gone and doesn't turn the subs on) so I use 60HZ so there is still same impact from the system.

The subwoofer delay knob I believe acts as the phase on the sub, should I adjust these while in reference mode until they sound in phase or just leave reference mode off?

I am thinking of adding another MFW15 to the mix in the rear of the room to the right where the end table is. I can aim the sub behind the seating and put the end table sideways next to it. The use Sub1 from the AVR for the two from subs and Sub2 for the rear and run Audyssey again. I also need to buy another amp soon for this third sub.

Surround sounds friggin incredible except the subs, the room just sounds negative when MultiEQ is set to reference.... there is room shaking bass but it sounds null if that makes sense.

Ignore the wiring, still working on it. The room is 15x14.

Front.JPG 
Rear.JPG

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
Mark_Seaton
KlipschHead281 wrote:
Good morning,

I'm hoping to get a response from Mark specifically because the more I work on the HT the harder it is to get it to sound right.

I have been reading the "Official Audyssey" thread at the AVS forum and it states to leave subwoofer distances alone and a host of other things I have apparently been doing wrong over the years.

I spent the entire weekend following the faq to get the system dialed in and the more I worked on following the FAQ the stranger it sounds.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 (distance of 11.4ft) - Center RC-64 (distance of 11.2ft) - Front Wide 2 RP-160M (distance of 7ft), Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's ?)


Saturday was a bust, subwoofer distances were all over the map, it crossed over the mains, center and wides way too low and MultiEQ32 set itself to reference and in this mode the subs sound out of phase so I turned that off since the Marantz guide says its safe to do so plus the phase sounded better. I adjust the crossovers to 60HZ (the wife listens to the system when I'm gone and doesn't turn the subs on) so I use 60HZ so there is still same impact from the system.

The subwoofer delay knob I believe acts as the phase on the sub, should I adjust these while in reference mode until they sound in phase or just leave reference mode off?

I am thinking of adding another MFW15 to the mix in the rear of the room to the right where the end table is. I can aim the sub behind the seating and put the end table sideways next to it. The use Sub1 from the AVR for the two from subs and Sub2 for the rear and run Audyssey again. I also need to buy another amp soon for this third sub.

Surround sounds friggin incredible except the subs, the room just sounds negative when MultiEQ is set to reference.... there is room shaking bass but it sounds null if that makes sense.


One of the guides may recommend not adjusting the distances after running Audyssey, but they didn't get that from me.  In simple terms, check everything to make sure the results make sense.  The software can't see your room.  If you get nonsensical values, make sure there is a reason and compare to setting them as you might expect.

While the distance values Audyssey comes up with for subwoofers might be useful for a starting point and knowing relative difference between the subs.  I was one of the first to post about the need to check the blend between the subwoofers and speakers.  I also have repeatedly noted that for multiple subwoofers along the front wall, you will often get better results by driving them with one signal, or moving the distances back to the same, typically that of the closer 2 subs.  

To get better results I would suggest 2 options.  First you could make the sub distance and levels the same followed by some experimentation with the subwoofer distance of the pair vs the mains.  The second option is to Y the pair of subs off one output and calibrate the pair as a single entity (exactly what happens with our + & Slave units).  Now you only have to worry about going back in to correct crossover settings, subwoofer distances and subwoofer level.  You can work through the subwoofer distance tweaking by comparing the value Audyssey measured and work through 1 ft at a time to +8ft.  Give the lack of success you've had thus far, I'd re-take measurements with 1 sub out.

You can listen to some music or a soundtrack with a good bass drum or bass guitar running through the upper bass range, or remove all the guesswork with a microphone.

If you want to investigate the option of the rear sub, you can move one of the 2 subs to the rear corner planned and see how things react with front and rear subs.  Again, a $75 microphone would make for a more clear answer vs just listening and tinkering with sub distances.  In any case, be sure all the subwoofers are set to roughly the same level and are driven to the same level.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Quote - "One of the guides may recommend not adjusting the distances after running Audyssey, but they didn't get that from me.  In simple terms, check everything to make sure the results make sense.  The software can't see your room.  If you get nonsensical values, make sure there is a reason and compare to setting them as you might expect."

 - Mark, I hear you. I was paying attention to the FAQ stating the distance values are increased and then various reasons are given to stay with those sub distances. 

Quote - "While the distance values Audyssey comes up with for subwoofers might be useful for a starting point and knowing relative difference between the subs.  I was one of the first to post about the need to check the blend between the subwoofers and speakers.  I also have repeatedly noted that for multiple subwoofers along the front wall, you will often get better results by driving them with one signal, or moving the distances back to the same, typically that of the closer 2 subs.

To get better results I would suggest 2 options.  First you could make the sub distance and levels the same followed by some experimentation with the subwoofer distance of the pair vs the mains.  The second option is to Y the pair of subs off one output and calibrate the pair as a single entity (exactly what happens with our + & Slave units).  Now you only have to worry about going back in to correct crossover settings, subwoofer distances and subwoofer level.  You can work through the subwoofer distance tweaking by comparing the value Audyssey measured and work through 1 ft at a time to +8ft.  Give the lack of success you've had thus far, I'd re-take measurements with 1 sub out."

 - Ahhh as usual the FAQ suggested using the 2 outputs separately so Audyssey could match them, trying to get them right has been a pain with the SR7009, I'll switch them to one output and try again. Both subs are the same distance from the MLP but the one in the right corner has more corner gain than the one in front of the corner windows (how awesome are corner windows 'eh?)

Quote - "You can listen to some music or a soundtrack with a good bass drum or bass guitar running through the upper bass range, or remove all the guesswork with a microphone."

 - I'll order the microphone, I went back and forth with music as described, it seriously sounded like there were no woofers in ANYTHING with MultiEQ32 reference turned on unless you sat in the MLP and even there you felt the impact but it still sounded out of phase. Anywhere else in the room was just a null big time.

Quote - "If you want to investigate the option of the rear sub, you can move one of the 2 subs to the rear corner planned and see how things react with front and rear subs.  Again, a $75 microphone would make for a more clear answer vs just listening and tinkering with sub distances.  In any case, be sure all the subwoofers are set to roughly the same level and are driven to the same level."

 - I decided to write you because you deal with this stuff all the time and I figure rather than just go by the Audyssey FAQ which was getting me nowhere this weekend I'd be better served asking you. Which I should have posted about on Saturday but being stubborn I kept on going with unsatisfactory results. I'll do as described one night this week (hopefully tonight), I'll be ordering the mic and amplifier off of you soon.

Do you believe in wide channels? My wife and I and maybe because the room isn't that big, we enjoy it with them A LOT so I'm sticking with them. 

One last question, how much do you charge to dial in a system if I paid you to do it, I know you only deal with the high end stuff and mine isn't but I'm driving the wife insane during this process and if I can't get it right the cost may be worth it?

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
Stereodude
Audyssey definitely falls into the trust but verify category.  You really need a measurement microphone + REW (or similar SW package) to do that (or a lot of time and patience to do manual sweeps with a SPL meter & test tones).

As Mark points out, I wouldn't run two sub outs in that situation.  Since they're basically equidistant from the MLP I'd feed them the same signal (splitter cable) and run them with the same gain setting on the amp for each too.
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Stereodude,

I'm going to lug the MFW15 from the basement and place it in the rear of the living room to the right of my chair facing the rear of the room and put both front subs on SUB1. It's a stock MFW with an AV123 v2 amp of sketchy reliability and stock AV123 driver. I'll give it a shot with that one on SUB2 and run Audyssey and some sweeps with the meter. I'm also going to see when the amps are available and also get a mic.

If anything the rear sub will remove the null if I do it right. Thanks for the help guys, we'll see if the wife loses it when I tell her what I'm going to do tonight. [smile]


Rear.JPG 

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Last night I put both subs on one connection, re-ran Audyssey and the bass response is tighter and more intense however MultiEQ32 turns on that seperate "Reference" mode on again and the null is back so I go through the whole thing again adjusting the phase and it doesn't matter how I do it, that setting ruins the bass response so I ran Audyssey again until it got it closer to how I like it, then turned that setting off for all sources (surround modes have to be done separately as they are used) ran the test tones and tested.

The gain on the subs is at 9:45am on the dial, seems low but this is where its at with the AVR volume at 0 and setting it at 75db.

Finally last night we watched the Conjuring 1 and 2 (they use the surround channels a lot) and heard things or should I say things were more defined than they have been in the past. If it seems possible the subs seemed to dig deeper than before, the floor shudder is incredible, it always has been but now there isn't any phase issues unless that setting is turned back on.

Having the front wides, the front heights and the added side surrounds definitely give a more enveloping experience. Next I'm going to carry that behemoth MFW15 up from the basement and connect it to the 2nd SUB output and go through the entire process again. If it sounds right and the AV123 v2 amplifier can make it through the testing and the system sounds even better, I'll be calling to order another amp.

My wish is to someday afford more Seaton Sound speakers, I can only imagine how they sound, for now I'll just have to have his amplifiers. [smile]

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
DC3
Turn the sub amp up a notch or two and create the sound/impact that YOU like for your space.  You can always dial them back down.  I run more subs than I need and I like more impact than most...
Don
Quote 0 0
Stereodude
Are you using Dynamic EQ?  How loudly are you listening?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Reference" mode.  I've only used one product with Audyssey, my Denon 4520CI.  I like the results though and have generally been impressed with it.
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
DC3,

The problem isn't how loud the subs are, the problem is in MultiEQ32 it chooses "reference" mode which creates a null, no amount of gain can fix that.

The floor shudders big time, but if it sounds "negative" then it doesn't matter. With the extra MultiEQ32 setting turned off it sounds awesome and that is where I've got it right now.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Stereodude,

Dynamic EQ is turned off, by reference I don't mean reference level, MultiEQ32 has 3 different modes you can choose after Audyssey has been run. It never used to turn this on but now every Audyssey run it turns on MultiEQ32 in "reference" mode which does seem to add a bit of dimension but it also creates this null that by turning this off simply goes away.

I'm getting a mic and starting fresh when it arrives. I do have to say, right now it sounds incredible. 

Audyssey.JPG 

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
Ninjahifi
I went through something similar myself a few years back. I did ultimately only use 1 sub out to two subs up front. But the biggest help was getting a mic and REW. With REW you can sort of see how your subs are responding based on the settings/position. I think it's invaluable for setting up multiple subs. Also that reference mode is Audyssey being on. If you set it to Off then your not using your Audyssey measurements. Really the only options are reference or Flat. The L/R bypass is more for music, Flat is for a very treated room, reference should introduce a house curve that sounds best for movies.
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Ninjahifi,

Not true, this is a setting outside of the built in Audyssey configuration per the documentation.

QUOTE - "
Set Audyssey MultEQ® XT32, Audyssey Dynamic EQ®, Audyssey Dynamic Volume® and Audyssey LFC™. These can be selected after Audyssey® Setup has been performed."

By default this is turned off, running Audyssey shouldn't be turning it back on unless I select it. I don't know why it suddenly does this but it has been quirky since day one in this AVR so I run it until it gets it as close to right as I can.

I agree about  the mic and REW, definitely going to do that.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Well well well... look what Denon/Marantz just released, of course it's not compatible with my SR7009.

Denon/Marantz Audyssey MultEQ Editor App Allows Full Customization of Sound

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
Ninjahifi
I think your misunderstanding it (unless I'm completely wrong, which is entirely possible [biggrin] [wink].  Audyssey MultEQ® XT32, Audyssey Dynamic EQ®, Audyssey Dynamic Volume® and Audyssey LFC™ are all different things.  When you run measurements you are creating filters for Audyssey MultiEQ XT32, you can then chose to have it on with a regular (reference) curve or a flat curve.  Audyssey Dynamic EQ will "adjust" your curve from XT32 so it sounds better at lower volumes (it increases the sub frequencies, and the volume on the surrounds), you can chose to have this on or off but XT 32 must be set to reference or flat for you to be using your measurements.  Audyssey Dynamic Volume is another feature that you can have on or off that will help keep the loudest and quietest portions of what your listening to pretty close (hence the dynamic).  I think almost everyone keeps that off.  And finally Audyssey LFC is a feature that is suppose to help keep subwoofer LFE sounds from going to other rooms.  I think it means Low Frequency Containment?  Anyway again I think most everyone keeps this off (unless your watching something at night?).

No matter what your measurements for Audyssey are tied to Audyssey MultiEQ XT32.  If you do not set this to Reference or Flat then you are not using your measurements.  If you set it to off after running Audyssey then Audyssey was only used to set distances and crossovers.  It is entirely possible that you like the sound as is with no EQ just with the correct crossovers and distances set up, but just know that no equalization is being applied to the speakers if this is off.
Quote 0 0
Ninjahifi
And yeah, I saw that new Audyssey Editor and thought the same thing damn that would have been nice.
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
Ninjahifi,


You're probably right and it makes sense, but I have run Audyssey in the past and when I checked on MutliEQ32 it was off, which of course confused me more. AT lunch today I'm going to read as much as I can in the manual, which I admit so far is only confusing the situation.

I can't wait for the mic, I'm going to call Mark today and buy one from him.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
I'm going into the deep end.... looks like I can use my ratshack meter as well for the mic.

Room EQ Wizard (REW) Information Index

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
Ninjahifi
How did this work out for you?  I know when I got into REW the only reason I was able to do it was because the newer versions work a lot easier with just a laptop and an HDMI cable.  In the past using all the external sound cards and wiring seemed over complicated.
Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
I ordered a microphone from MiniDSP, it hasn't arrived yet so I'll post more when I give it a go when the mic arrives.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0
KlipschHead281
I picked up the mic from Fed-Ex last night, I forgot about audio so I ordered a 15ft HDMI cable instead of using RCA from the laptop soundcard.

AVR/Blu-Ray - Marantz SR7009 (9.2.2) - Blu-Ray Oppo UDP 203 - Apple TV
Front Height Amplifier - 2 Marantz MA6100's
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 - Center RC-64 - Front Wide 2 RP-160M, Front Height 2 RB-10
Rear Surround - Surround Back 2 RS-52, Surround 2 R-14M
Subs - Dual MFW15's (Seaton Sound ICE amplifiers, soon to be triple MFW's)
TV -Samsung 55" 8500
2CH - Klipsch "The Sixes" and 1 MFW15


Quote 0 0