rc2776
Hello Seaton Sound Enthusiasts,
                                              I have been a proud owner of the original Submersive for the past 6 years and enjoyed its offerings immensely.

Recently, after reading dozens of reviews of Bass Nirvana achieved by folks with Dual Submersives, I probably got carried away and decided to go for a going for a second Submersive after consulting Mark and knowing very well that I have extremely limited placement options for the 2nd Submersive.

My only placement options for this monster are on either side of the 3 seat couch used as the MLP.

I received the 2nd Sub almost 8 weeks ago, however I did not receive the replacement HP+ Amp for my original Submersive till about 4 weeks ago. So I waited for my original sub to be working before unpacking the 2nd Sub.

I placed the 2nd Sub (Sub B) on the left of my couch (it tightly hugs the couch ...leaving any space would come in the way of the inward swing french door) and the first Sub (Sub A) towards front right corner about 13' from MLP.

With a lot of anticipation and excitement I fired up the two subs and went through the Audyssey XT 32 and Sub EQ auto calibration on my Denon AVR-4311 and made the standard Audyssey tweaks and slipped in the Spectre BluRay disc.

Unfortunately, within seconds, all my excitement died with the opening "Day of the Dead" scene at -10 DB. The bass from Sub B was drowning everything else. The powerful DTS-HD sound was totally undermined.

I tried many different tweaks such as:
1) Adjusted the distance of  Sub B from 5' to 8' and the Sub A from 13' to 18' (to keep a Delta of 10' as per Mark's suggestion)
2) Reduced the Sub B level by 3 dB
3) Increased the Sub A level by 3 dB
4) Changed front speakers (Aperion Verus Grand Towers) from Small to Large and reverse
5) Changed Sub Cross Over from 80 HZ to 60 HZ
6) Muted Sub B

Other than moving 4' to 5' towards the middle of the room (from the MLP) or muting Sub B, no other adjustment I made produced desirable results.

Do you have any other suggestions or tips ? I simply do not have any other placement options in my Kitchen / Den / Theater combo (18' X 38' X 9') open to the rest of the house.

I am open to all reasonable suggestions to make the new setup work. However, what are my options with Seaton Sound / Mark ? 

Thanks in advance for your expert advise and help.

Cheers
.






 

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audioguy
rc2776 wrote:
Hello Seaton Sound Enthusiasts,
                                              I have been a proud owner of the original Submersive for the past 6 years and enjoyed its offerings immensely.

Recently, after reading dozens of reviews of Bass Nirvana achieved by folks with Dual Submersives, I probably got carried away and decided to go for a going for a second Submersive after consulting Mark and knowing very well that I have extremely limited placement options for the 2nd Submersive.

My only placement options for this monster are on either side of the 3 seat couch used as the MLP.

I received the 2nd Sub almost 8 weeks ago, however I did not receive the replacement HP+ Amp for my original Submersive till about 4 weeks ago. So I waited for my original sub to be working before unpacking the 2nd Sub.

I placed the 2nd Sub (Sub B) on the left of my couch (it tightly hugs the couch ...leaving any space would come in the way of the inward swing french door) and the first Sub (Sub A) towards front right corner about 13' from MLP.

With a lot of anticipation and excitement I fired up the two subs and went through the Audyssey XT 32 and Sub EQ auto calibration on my Denon AVR-4311 and made the standard Audyssey tweaks and slipped in the Spectre BluRay disc.

Unfortunately, within seconds, all my excitement died with the opening "Day of the Dead" scene at -10 DB. The bass from Sub B was drowning everything else. The powerful DTS-HD sound was totally undermined.

I tried many different tweaks such as:
1) Adjusted the distance of  Sub B from 5' to 8' and the Sub A from 13' to 18' (to keep a Delta of 10' as per Mark's suggestion)
2) Reduced the Sub B level by 3 dB
3) Increased the Sub A level by 3 dB
4) Changed front speakers (Aperion Verus Grand Towers) from Small to Large and reverse
5) Changed Sub Cross Over from 80 HZ to 60 HZ
6) Muted Sub B

Other than moving 4' to 5' towards the middle of the room (from the MLP) or muting Sub B, no other adjustment I made produced desirable results.

Do you have any other suggestions or tips ? I simply do not have any other placement options in my Kitchen / Den / Theater combo (18' X 38' X 9') open to the rest of the house.

I am open to all reasonable suggestions to make the new setup work. However, what are my options with Seaton Sound / Mark ? 

Thanks in advance for your expert advise and help.

Cheers


How are the subs gain control knobs set?  Do they both have the same amp or is one the original 2400 watt and the other the 4000 watt or either of them the 1000 watt?

I'm very visual.  Any chance of posting a room sketch, with dimensions, so I can get a better idea.  I have had multiple SubMersives for a long time and have had them in many different locations and never had the issue you have.  Some locations were clearly better than others but none produced the results you are having.


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rc2776
Hello Audio Guy ! Thanks for your reply.
I got inspired by your 4 SubM setup and dreamed of having a similar setup some day in the future. Hence I got the previous generation HP+ Amp on my new SubM and upgraded the amp on my original SubM also to a previous generation HP+.

The current gain setting on both SubMs is 2 clicks from mute and the trim on the Receiver is -6 DB for SubM A (maple) and -9 DB on SubM B (Mahogany).

My main problem seems to be stemming from the extreme proximity to SubM B. The MLP is less than 3' from Sub B, and the seat to the left of the MLP is 1' from Sub B.

Due to multi-purpose function of my Den, I can't think of any other position for the Sub B that would be aesthetically feasible and folks won't be tripping over the power or signal cables.

I am attaching some pics of my Den. Hopefully, this would give you a good idea of my space and challenges.

From the MLP to the front wall is 17', to Center Speaker is 15', to front towers 17', to Sub A 12', to Sub B 3'.

The image on the left shows the main couch in my Den and middle seat is the MLP. As you can see there is hardly any space between the MLP and SubM B.
The image on the right shows my entire Den / Theater Area. The Couch is against the back wall and wall to wall I have 18'.

I have a powerful 5 channel Amp and a 12" Sub in my 2006 Honda Pilot. It kicks and the sound is simply phenomenal at the Driver and Passenger seats. However, the Bass begins to affect the sound in the 2nd row and it simply becomes unpleasant at the 3rd row when the bass is turned up to the level I enjoy in the driver's seat. So anytime my kids or any one else are sitting on the 3rd row, I have to reduce the subwoofer gain to almost zero. 
Now I am having a similar experience in my Den when SubM B is pumping. I do like my bass to be 3-6 DB Hotter than the rest. Even though I have a big listening area which open to the rest of the house (Post # 6), my Original SubM gain was typically between #12 and # 6 (#10 would be the most common setting).

I am sure you have shared this info somewhere on this forum, however, how big is your room ? And more importantly, what is the distance between the MLP (or any other seating position used regularly) and the nearest Sub ?

MLP Full couch with SubM B (med) .jpg  Full Listening Area with SubM A and Sub M B (med).jpg
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MikeDuke
I can't help you with your placement issues, but 300kb may be too big for this site.  You can go to this site
http://www.shrinkpictures.com/
and experiment on how to lower the size of the photo.  I have used it many times and it works great.
I simply love this stuff.
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rc2776
Thanks MikeDuke. Your suggestion worked like a charm. Is 100KB the total upload size or the max size for each pic ? Looks like only 2 of the 5 pics I tried to upload, actually made it [smile]

Front Towers, Center and SubM A (medium).jpg 
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rc2776
Some additional pics:
Den - Hallway to the rest of the house (medium).jpg 
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MikeDuke
For me, I made sure that no individual pic was larger that 100kb.  All mine are under 100kb on this site.  Have you tried playing around with the distance settings in your preamp or receiver?  Maybe that would help.  Or maybe some sort of external device that allows you more control over each sub.  This is getting out of my league so I will leave the rest for the pro's.  Glad I could help with the pics though.  But I do see your issues.  
I simply love this stuff.
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Ninjahifi
I think you should look into gain matching your subs. I think your receiver does something like this before running audyssey but I've found doing it before running audyssey helps. Over on the AVS forums there's a ton of posts about gain matching. A user named AustinJerry on that site wrote a guide for doing this with a minidsp but I think the principals are the same. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78476446/MiniDSP%202x4%20Set-Up%20Guide%20Rev%201.4.pdf
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bscool
rc2776 wrote:
Some additional pics:
Den - Hallway to the rest of the house (medium).jpg 


Hi rc2776 I have a few ideas I think will get you better results. It is going to take some trial and error, though. For starters having sub b so close to you, it is going to need to be turned down quite a bit in relation to sub a(this can be done either via the subs amp gain or if your processor has individual level adjustments for each sub.

I see on page 11 of your AVR manual it talks about setting each sub to 75-78 dB. This is critical to getting it to blend in. Since you are having issues with localization I think it is related to this. If you didnt do this part go back and try it at some point to make sure both subs are at 75 db at your MLP, and this is with one sub playing at a time only.

From what you said you have each subs amp gain at the same level and they are the same wattage amp if I remember correctly? So they are going to need to be at considerably different levels in the AVR if it has separate levels it is going to need to be down like 10-12db + lower or you will get the problem you are experiencing were is localized and draws your attention to it.

This is how I would explain it for someone that wants to see were getting these numbers from. Because do the math, sub a is 13' from you and sub b is 3'. Doubling the distance drops the db by 6 db and you are closer to sub b by 4-5 x the distance so if I am figuring correctly sub b will need to be 10-12 db or more lower to not be localized. The 3 db you turned sub b down is nothing.

Here would be another quick way to do it without rerunning Audyssey. Turn off or disconnect sub A and play some music and turn down sub b until it blends in and is not localized. When were blends good turn sub a back on and now it should blend much better. This would be a quick way for you to hear what I am talking about without running through Audyssey right away. 

The only thing is sub b is going to be loafing basically because it has to be attenuated so much because it is so close to your MLP. But it should smooth out your overall room response and still add some nice tactile feel being so close to your seating.

Also does that amp have the built in xover? Another thing you might need to try is lowering it down on sub b if the things don't help enough. Cutting it down to something like 40-60hz will help a ton with localization issues. I know it can mess with other things but it doesn't hurt to try it if you have that option available and everything else doesn't work. I wouldn't think you are going to be able to use a higher xover point like 80hz or above with a sub that is that close and not be able to have it stick out but I could be wrong.

Another thing you have both subs gains only 2 notches up from the lowest setting you will probably need to bump sub a gain up a few notches and sub b gain down in order to get enough room to get the 75 db from each sub at your MLP or you might not have enough room in your ARV setting to adjust it if you leave them the same.



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rc2776
Thank you Ninjahifi for sharing the detailed guide on gain matching. I have reviewed it and am thinking of adding a minidsp 2x4 HD to the mix.

BSCool - your assessment of my situation seems to be dead on target ! Now I have two identical Submersive HP+ so the amps are indeed the same. Since my initial post, I have successfully (after some small skirmishes of course !) moved SubM B to the other side of the french door, effectively increasing the distance to 8' (from the MLP). The localization issue seems to be a lot less even though I haven't had the chance to re-run Audyssey or make any other adjustments.
I will rerun Odyssey in the upcoming days and closely follow all your suggestions. During the last Audyssey run, I tried to adjust the gain on the subs to get 75DB at the MLP from each sub. However, like others others in the forum have expressed, even on the lowest gain setting (1st notch up from mute) I get 78-80 DB at the MLP. Not sure whether that would cause an adverse effect on the end result.

Since room treatments aren't an option  in my current setting, do you guys think the minidsp 2X4 / HD will help in any way ?

Thanks

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Stereodude
Do not get the HD version for subwoofers.  Get the standard balanced model.
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rc2776
Stereodude wrote:
Do not get the HD version for subwoofers.  Get the standard balanced model.


Thanks for the tip Stereodude. What would be the expected advantage of the balanced model over the unbalanced one ? What would be the adapters / cables required to connect my Denon Receiver (RCA) to the Submersives (XLR) ?

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Stereodude
rc2776 wrote:
Thanks for the tip Stereodude. What would be the expected advantage of the balanced model over the unbalanced one ? What would be the adapters / cables required to connect my Denon Receiver (RCA) to the Submersives (XLR) ?

The unbalanced one doesn't have enough voltage capability on the input and can easily be driven into clipping by your Denon.  The balanced one is a little bit of a pain, but you cut an RCA cable off and wire it to the phoenix connector for the input side.  On the output side get a XLR cable and cut the end off and wire it to the phoenix connector.  Alternatively you can buy them if you don't want to make them.

The higher sampling frequency of the HD model causes it to have significant overshoot on high order low frequency filters, which is why I suggested avoiding it.
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bscool
rc2776 wrote:
Thank you Ninjahifi for sharing the detailed guide on gain matching. I have reviewed it and am thinking of adding a minidsp 2x4 HD to the mix.

BSCool - your assessment of my situation seems to be dead on target ! Now I have two identical Submersive HP+ so the amps are indeed the same. Since my initial post, I have successfully (after some small skirmishes of course !) moved SubM B to the other side of the french door, effectively increasing the distance to 8' (from the MLP). The localization issue seems to be a lot less even though I haven't had the chance to re-run Audyssey or make any other adjustments.
I will rerun Odyssey in the upcoming days and closely follow all your suggestions. During the last Audyssey run, I tried to adjust the gain on the subs to get 75DB at the MLP from each sub. However, like others others in the forum have expressed, even on the lowest gain setting (1st notch up from mute) I get 78-80 DB at the MLP. Not sure whether that would cause an adverse effect on the end result.

Since room treatments aren't an option  in my current setting, do you guys think the minidsp 2X4 / HD will help in any way ?

Thanks



OK when you said you are getting 78-80 db at the MLP with sub b at the lowest gain setting, what is the AVR setting for that sub? Is it still at -9 that mentioned in one of your posts? If so you could try taking it down some more in the AVR setting. Not sure what yours goes it maybe -12 or -15?

I am not familiar enough with the Minidsp to know what it can all do but from what I have read people were very happy with using it. I would think it would aid in with getting the subs to blend better but I am not sure.

Also something else you could do if you are out of room in your AVR to turn down sub b to get it at 75db you could increase the levels on your other channels so that they are at the 78-80db your sub b is at the MLP. This will throw off your "reference" level on your receiver when it is showing 0 the receiver but it will take care of this issue of sub b being to hot and standing out. Hope that makes sense.
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