Highrez
I left Mark a voice mail yesterday afternoon wanting to know if there was an update to the new sub amp he has in progress. I was surprised that he called me back around 7:34 pm my time and explained a few things that he had encountered with the new design but better than that he knew through earlier conversation that I had guest coming over Halloween to watch a couple of scary movies for the evening. Now to show what a standup guy Mark truly is he is he told me that he was going to overnight the new designed amp to me so my guest would not be disappointed. Well I am writing this the next morning to let all know that at around 10:10am  this morning lo and behold the FedEx truck was at my driveway and driver with package in hand from Mark. I just want to publically thank him and let all know that it may take a little longer but be patient Mark will deliver. Gotta go and get set up now, movies to watch [biggrin] !
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jjackkrashj
Awesome news!  Get it hooked up yet?  
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Kain
So, what's on the movie list? [biggrin]
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Mark_Seaton
(Below is a cross post from AVS Forum)
I finally gave my blessing on the final DSP setup late last night. We'll have all amplifiers (going to a few upgrading from HP or 1k versions) and F2+ & HP+ subs shipping out Monday. For those wondering what some are referring to, I'll be announcing a new version of our SubMersive amplifier which uses the same proprietary 4000W amplifier from SpeakerPower with a new input section and DSP control.


The new amplifier adds significant adjustments and controls through 4 programmable knobs. You get a much wider volume control range than the original amplifier, we have added a 4th order low pass filter (30-120Hz & 200Hz bypass), a 0-20ms delay knob for blending 2 groups of subs such as front-rear subs, and finally we've translated the Program 1 & 2, 19Hz and 15Hz response curves to a dial where 12 o'clock is identical to our old program 1, 19Hz mode, but you now have a range of +/-8dB across 11 evenly spaced curves, where the original was a single shelf of ~ +3.5dB. This translates to an outdoor response adjustment of the +/-3dB range (6dB window) of 12-27Hz. 

On the connection side, the new version of our HP+/F2+ amplifier retains the looping XLR inputs, adds a summed RCA input, along with finally adding a 12V trigger and auto sensing function. The auto sense works pretty well, but if you ever have the option of running a 3.5mm mini-plug for the trigger, do it, as most all preamps and receivers now include them, and you never have to wonder if the sub is on when it should or shouldn't be.

There were some delays in getting all of the settings dialed in to my satisfaction. Part of that was my being the perfectionist I am, and the other being the careful correlation of even the Volume control to our old amplifiers for those who may mix them or those who want to know where they are starting if they change from an older model to new model. With the new Volume knob 3 o'clock on the dial matches 0dB on the old amplifiers, while 12 o'clock matches where I have long recommend most to start their adjustment. After many years of observing what goes on with real, in-room response and seeing ways to use multiple subs in rooms, I feel the wide range for the LF response gives some unique options to get just what you are after from your system. Most should start at 12 o'clock on the dial, run room correction, and adjust to taste. For unique cases there is plenty of room to dial down the low end and raise the level to really push the punch region, or to dial back the lowest frequencies if you want to reduce the LF load on the subwoofer which can be very useful if having 1 sub in the rear of a room and multiples or larger units up front. 

Finally, achieving the same level of non-offensive, yet nearly bullet-proof, overload protection proved a significant task in the new DSP. The new DSP is a drag-n-drop, open pallet of options with a huge library of tools. While SpeakerPower offers some starting point suggestions, each designer can make a near infinite number of changes or additions. Defining the new overload behavior of the amplifier confirmed just how well my original design worked. The new DSP offers tools and configuration options with finer adjustment and the potential to make some improvements I've identified over 5 years of observation and experimentation. After a lot of testing, tinkering and way too much listening, I'm happy with the result where we gained a little clean output before any protection kicks in while maintaining the very benign overload behavior that many never even notice protecting against the surprise pops, clacks, bang or other scary overload noises if a momentary burst asks a little too much. Of course many never approach these limits, but most of those who seek us out will eventually explore those limits, and expect the subwoofer to sail through such exploration.

To the few who've been waiting, I am sorry for being such a stickler on some small details that added at least a week to the wait, but we're now good to go and will start shipping these amplifiers on Monday with new units already waiting on the shelf (and more on the way) for those who want to order. This new version of our amplifier will also be found in the upcoming SubMersive F18+.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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Mark_Seaton

These inevitable questions came up on AVS.  I'll consolidate this and more info the announcement thread and a thread about upgrades.

Quote:
I guess I will be the first to ask. I have the SubM HP+ model Master/Slave and use a receiver with Audyssey XT32 and an SMS-1 (using REW to set the filters) for DSP. Given that - should I consider upgrading my amp?

Quote:
And how much will this upgrade cost? Any trade in program for the HPi+ amp?

Upgrades will work out to a net cost of $900 with return of the original 1kW amplifiers, $500 with return of an HP amplifier (2400W), and $400 with return of an HP+.

Of course upgrading from a 2400W HP amplifier allows the addition of a slave unit. This certainly offers some savings over another powered unit, but between the upgrade cost, the slave cable and the price of the new units, the savings over a new HP+ are not as big as those who already have a plus unit at about $500 with multiple SubMersive discounts applied.

I'll be doing some more listening and comparison, but going from original HP+ to new HP+ will be a very modest upgrade. The biggest benefit of the new amp are the new features. I polished the performance a bit further around max output in the process. The perceived value of those features will vary greatly from one owner to the next. Let's run through a couple of the features:

1. [U]12V trigger and auto sensing[/B]: There are 12V trigger power devices available for ~$100. Those switch to 100% off, where the on-board 12V trigger gets to 1/4-1/3rd of idle power and eliminates any chance of induced noise while the system is off.

2. [I]LF EQ (low shelf/adjust extension/room size fitting)[/B]: If you have flexible manual EQ in the system in theory you can implement most of what the program settings and LF EQ offers, but many don't or won't get quite the right shape of things where this makes it very easy to dial in whatever lift/house curve you are after.

3. [U]Delay adjustment 0-20ms[/B]: If you have a single powered unit being used with a modern surround processor, the delay adjustment isn't of much advantage. For those with more than one powered subwoofer, the delay function could allow someone to eliminate a device and A/D-D/A step in an external box like a MiniDSP or DSP-30, particularly if you already have a room correction system like Audyssey XT32 or Dirac. For Dirac this is a significant advantage when using multiple powered units as it is much better equipped to correct the response of the subwoofers as a group after you first adjust placement and delay to get a good summation and starting point. Even though Audyssey XT32 does attempt to apply delay, it still EQ's the subs as a whole, and I have always found better results if the delay and blending is done manually and then let Audyssey correct the whole.

4. [U]Low pass crossover 30-120Hz + 200Hz[/B]: The new amplifier adds a 4th order (24dB/octave) low pass filter. While I very much prefer for 2ch listeners to have some form of response correction in the system to get the best sound quality, this opens many more possibilities in 2ch systems where you can use devices such as DSPeaker's AntiMode products or MiniDSP's Dirac boxes which don't include a low pass. You can also use the internal low pass to get a workable blend with the speakers and then use a single, full-range correction system such as Dirac, Trinnov, or AntiMode Dual-Core. Having a low pass at the amplifier can sometimes makes for a useful added flexibility in a home theater setup when blending multiple units or taming some in-room peaks just above the operating range. If the delay adjustment didn't quite get rid of some localization of a rear subwoofer, or you're having trouble getting a good blend with only delay adjustment, sometimes a low pass can work on its own or in combo with less overall delay as the low pass filter has some inherent delay of its own that changes with frequency to give a little different blend and less upper frequency contribution.

5. [U]XLR & RCA inputs[/B]: No need for adapters. While those who know they will eventually have a preamp with XLR connections might still want to run an XLR cable and use adapters, the best practice will be connecting XLR-XLR & RCA-RCA. This gives the lowest probability of hum or buzz. These higher power models do need to still use the 3rd pin safety ground, but addressing ground loop issues in an XLR-XLR system is typically a much simpler matter of just grounding the preamp.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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McLuvin
Hi Mark,

Here are some other questions that would be helpful to know the answers to:

Is the low pass filter actually defeated when cranked all the way up or is it still engaged?

Are the knobs the click type like on the current torpedo amps or free spinning?

Does the XLR output stage on the amps go though any processing or is it straight out as if it was coming off the preamp?

What is the output voltage of the output stage of the amp? I assume it's a perfect match to run out to another Speaker Power amp but curious nonetheless.

Any discounts for those that just purchased a submersive in the past few months?

I am extremely interested in the upgrade as I could use the delay feature and the auto-off function for the sub behind the couch would be useful. I have the master-slave setup up front and a master sitting behind the couch. I currently use a Xilica for the delay between the two setups but it would be nice to get rid of that and just loop the subs together.

Looking forward to learning more about these amps.
Greg
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Mark_Seaton
McLuvin wrote:
Hi Mark,

Here are some other questions that would be helpful to know the answers to:

Is the low pass filter actually defeated when cranked all the way up or is it still engaged?


The SubMersive has always has a shallow low pass filter around 220-250Hz.  This has no effect on the operating range and insures nothing out of band becomes unexpectedly audible.  The SubMersive has always had extension out to about 200Hz to make it easy to blend with compact speakers and higher or shallower crossovers.  The low pass keeps users out of trouble and makes such combinations easier to get sounding right.

The full clockwise setting of the low pass filter matches the upper end response of the original SubMersive below 200Hz.  For subwoofer purposes the low pass is bypassed at this setting.

McLuvin wrote:

Are the knobs the click type like on the current torpedo amps or free spinning?


The knobs are a standard, smooth-moving dial.  They are not detented like the original amplifiers.  The volume has a much wider range of adjustment, but isn't hard to correlate to the old amplifiers.

McLuvin wrote:

Does the XLR output stage on the amps go though any processing or is it straight out as if it was coming off the preamp?

What is the output voltage of the output stage of the amp? I assume it's a perfect match to run out to another Speaker Power amp but curious nonetheless.


I've seen others shipping SpeakerPower amplifiers obviously confused about how the amps work and spreading some confusion on this...  Nothing fancy here.  It's a looping connection that is simply a Y connector with no circuitry between them, so what comes in, goes out.  If for some reason you had the wrong gender XLR, you can connect it to the male XLR and it will work just fine.  

Note the RCA connectors are summing rather than looping.  RCA Y-splitters are plentiful, and this gives the means for a summed input in a stereo system.

McLuvin wrote:

Any discounts for those that just purchased a submersive in the past few months?

I am extremely interested in the upgrade as I could use the delay feature and the auto-off function for the sub behind the couch would be useful. I have the master-slave setup up front and a master sitting behind the couch. I currently use a Xilica for the delay between the two setups but it would be nice to get rid of that and just loop the subs together.

Looking forward to learning more about these amps.


Next week I'll be taking a closer look at what we can do on upgrades.  I'll probably make some pro-rated accommodation for those who purchased an HP+/F2+ in the last 4-6 months, but nothing settled yet.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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airboyd
I was able to go to the Audio Calibration Talk/Session in Burbank, CA with Home Theater Forum that Mark did. I was also unable to walk away without buying something...so, I've added an F2 Slave upgrade and the 'new' 4000W amp is on it's way right now as I had a non+ F2. 

If you want to know what you missed, it was a full Dolby Atmos setup with 4 F2's (2x2 F2+slaves) and a Sony 4K projector and about 30-40 minutes of setup talk.

Mark put on a great talk and really manages to simplify some of the setup and get you away from being so rigid. It makes sense when you hear him say it. One example was using a setup utility like ARC and creating a listener bubble vs mechanically measuring every single seat and measuring for the primary listeners. 

It's really nice that Mark is able to interact with customers like this and adds a lot to the Seaton name.

I'll try and get some ARC measurements up on the other F2 thread later this week for those interested. Interstellar and Cloverfield Blu-rays at the ready...
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airboyd
I guess I do have some questions.

I'm stuck with a room limiting issue for the F2+Slave now. I can keep the front left quarter and slave at rear behind couch along main window OR I have to move both to the back wall.

I'm assuming from reading the new controls, that the delay is for a "pair" of subs and not sub and slave? As in, I can't really do front/rear with the slave setup?

As I'm using ARC, do I need to worry that much about about the subs being approx 15 ft apart? The MLP would be about 3 feet from rear sub in this config.

I'm guessing I'm going to have to go with both on the rear wall behind couches, which also had the least nulls for my single F2?

I know it's room defendant but anyone feel like rear corners facing couch is any better than symmetrical between rear/surrounds facing forward?

Thoughts appreciated. Working on this Monday.
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Mark_Seaton
airboyd wrote:
I guess I do have some questions. I'm stuck with a room limiting issue for the F2+Slave now. I can keep the front left quarter and slave at rear behind couch along main window OR I have to move both to the back wall. I'm assuming from reading the new controls, that the delay is for a "pair" of subs and not sub and slave? As in, I can't really do front/rear with the slave setup? As I'm using ARC, do I need to worry that much about about the subs being approx 15 ft apart? The MLP would be about 3 feet from rear sub in this config. I'm guessing I'm going to have to go with both on the rear wall behind couches, which also had the least nulls for my single F2? I know it's room defendant but anyone feel like rear corners facing couch is any better than symmetrical between rear/surrounds facing forward? Thoughts appreciated. Working on this Monday.


The slave unit always does exactly what the + / Master unit does.

You can do front/rear placement with +/slave, you just have to measure or try it out to know how well that configuration works without the separate delay.  Remember all the early Harman papers recommending 2 or 4 subwoofers assumed the same signal going to each subwoofer.  Only in much later study and work did they up the flexibility to different delay or EQ into the equation.  

Translation:  Give it a try.  Measure with one up front, then plug in the slave and see how they combine.

As for the rear config, that location having the least nulls for a single unit is promising.  I would give the separated rear corners a try first and compare to the center.  If it's close, go with the corners IMO.  Listen either with ARC bypassed or re-run for the different rear locations and listen to something punchy or with a percussive bass line and see what the subjective difference is.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
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airboyd
I guess this might help some FAQs for the future... What's the toggle switch do? When it's right and nothing plugged in, it hums, kind of clicking hum. I use XLR when it's left, it's fine but I had the switch in the wrong place when I turned up the volume. Miss the click knob for gain, easier for little hands to change. Would have loved to have keep the Speakon power cord. Loved the way it looked and the different cable so it couldn't be stuck in the wrong outlet. The auto position didn't seem to work well with the Anthem. The solenoid kept clicking and I couldn't see what it was doing. Clarify, the power light is not supposed to light up with the 12V trigger? Any hints for the LF Adjust, I have it at 12 o'clock for now and crossover highest to let ARC work. That's it for today. More tomorrow. I stuck the slave in the back and just plugged it in to see what it sounded like unmodified and found out that I had to reverse polarity on the Anthem to the subs. I'll have to sit down and check front vs rear vs both to see if they can mix okay after I run a new ARC. I'm averaging the sub distance as I read online.

EDIT

Ran a quick ARC today. Returned sub setting to normal polarity. All knobs at suggested settings. Trying it with "domestic preferred placement." Front F2 on left side facing right across width of room, approx. six feet from front wall and as close to front speakers as I can get it, Rear Slave F2 centered behind MLP facing forward into length of room.

I tried measuring in more of a bubble in the MLP and will need to tweak that a little more due to recliners.

  
Screen Shot 2015-11-09 at 19.02.37.png


Screen Shot 2015-11-09 at 19.13.47.png 
ARC did it's stuff. I find that I'm able to localize the rear a little. I'm going to try it for a few days and see how I feel. Would putting it on it's side help "hide" the localization behind a couch?

Bass is immensely improved, especially LFE.
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McLuvin
Mark_Seaton wrote:

Next week I'll be taking a closer look at what we can do on upgrades.  I'll probably make some pro-rated accommodation for those who purchased an HP+/F2+ in the last 4-6 months, but nothing settled yet.


Hi Mark, thanks for the feedback.

For those of us that have the current torpedo amps and want to stay with them, will they still be an option in the future if we want to add additional subs? For instance, if I decide not to upgrade either one of my current masters and I want to add another master down the road, will I still be able to choose the current amps so I can have all of my amps match?



Greg
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airboyd
airboyd wrote:
I guess this might help some FAQs for the future... What's the toggle switch do? When it's right and nothing plugged in, it hums, kind of clicking hum. I use XLR when it's left, it's fine but I had the switch in the wrong place when I turned up the volume. Miss the click knob for gain, easier for little hands to change. Would have loved to have keep the Speakon power cord. Loved the way it looked and the different cable so it couldn't be stuck in the wrong outlet. The auto position didn't seem to work well with the Anthem. The solenoid kept clicking and I couldn't see what it was doing. Clarify, the power light is not supposed to light up with the 12V trigger? Any hints for the LF Adjust, I have it at 12 o'clock for now and crossover highest to let ARC work. That's it for today. More tomorrow. I stuck the slave in the back and just plugged it in to see what it sounded like unmodified and found out that I had to reverse polarity on the Anthem to the subs. I'll have to sit down and check front vs rear vs both to see if they can mix okay after I run a new ARC. I'm averaging the sub distance as I read online.

EDIT

Ran a quick ARC today. Returned sub setting to normal polarity. All knobs at suggested settings. Trying it with "domestic preferred placement." Front F2 on left side facing right across width of room, approx. six feet from front wall and as close to front speakers as I can get it, Rear Slave F2 centered behind MLP facing forward into length of room.

I tried measuring in more of a bubble in the MLP and will need to tweak that a little more due to recliners.

  
Screen Shot 2015-11-09 at 19.02.37.png


Screen Shot 2015-11-09 at 19.13.47.png 
ARC did it's stuff. I find that I'm able to localize the rear a little. I'm going to try it for a few days and see how I feel. Would putting it on it's side help "hide" the localization behind a couch?

Bass is immensely improved, especially LFE.


Nothing to add to the outstanding questions above.

I've been listening to them for a week or so now and having the Master/Slave is really growing on me. I notice the localization of the rear less as time goes on. There's a little boominess every now and then and I might see if I can figure out how to use the "crossover" knob to blend it by ear a little better.

It's hard to explain how much different the room sounds and acts with the slave F2 in it. Even the bass outside of the main room sounds better. 

The knobs worked out in nice easy 12 o'clock positions, so having clicking or detented knobs has been less of an issue. The amp doesn't seem to draw much more power or have any affect in my system power wise. The biggest changes to seem to be source material not the speakers.

I think the only real wish list item would be Speakon power vs the "standard" three prong plug. I really liked the Speakon and think it really looked good. Looking forward to a good FAQ for the Updated 4000W amps, although it really did dial in with Mark's suggested starting points...
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