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Mark_Seaton

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Registered: 05/29/07
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Posted 06/05/12 at 10:04 PMReply with quote #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2
Hey Mark,  if you have a moment please let me know your suggestion on my circuit design...


While I try to keep up, I honestly missed this one here with all that is currently on our plate.  A quick e-mail first, followed by a call if I can't answer in a day or three is an effective method.  Kelly helps monitor e-mails and can bring them to my attention.

Circuit requirements fuzzy at best.  The reality is that you can get away with a LOT of audio power per circuit rating, and how you group speakers can help even further.  Remember that most circuit breakers can allow for short surges of 3-10x the power for 1-30 seconds.  A circuit breaker is there to prevent wires from overheating and faults from starting fires, not play traffic cop for your audio system.  There are probably 10 different possibilities of how to break out circuits for just your system, but here are some simple guidelines that anyone can use:

Absolute worst case that is justifiable to design for and potentially worth considering if your room and speakers make it likely that you will really push the limits of the speakers (ie 1 subwoofer in a dedicated 6,000 cu.ft. room):
1)  Allow 1/3rd main speaker amplifier power rating
2)  Allow 1/2 subwoofer amplifier power rating

More realistic calculations that align with real peak:average ratios found in music and movies, especially over multiple channels:
1)  Allow 1/6th main speaker amplifier power rating
2)  Allow 1/3rd subwoofer amplifier power rating  (with 2+ subwoofers or small rooms you can often factor 1/4 power).

The reality is that additional circuiting is relatively cheap in the context of a dedicated theater so long as you have spaces in your panel.

My personal preference is to design for about 1/4 of the main speaker power and 1/3rd the subwoofer power to insure nothing is of concern and allow for more future possibilities. 

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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/08/12 at 10:15 AMReply with quote #22 

Ok cool,  thanks Mark.  I think that works well with what I was thinking.  A 20 amp circuit for the Cats, and a 20 amp circuit for the F2s. MAYBE a second circuit for the 4 subs?   Although in my 17 x 27 room with 4 of them.. I cant imagine I will really need the headroom. 

hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/13/12 at 11:11 AMReply with quote #23 
Mark do I need surge protection or power conditioning on the circuits for the Cats or F2s? I will be running them all off of RadioRa2 outlets that will remotely hard shut off the speakers and subs when the system is shut down. Does that affect anything as far as whether surge or power conditioning being needed is concerned?
calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/13/12 at 12:36 PMReply with quote #24 
I would be Leary of their use. Their product spec talks of "patented softswitch technology" & "leakage current through the module, similar to a night lighted toggle switch"

If you search my posts, you will see how I shut my system down.
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Carl
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/14/12 at 09:01 AMReply with quote #25 

Ok here is a cheap way of going about cutting power to the speakers (I cant get to the speakers once installed,  by the way,  so I HAVE to be able to power cycle them remotely).  Since they are on dedicated circuits, what if I just throw the breaker when finished?  My subpanel is convenient to do this. 

Will the breaker wear and fail quickly if it gets this kind of treatment?
 If I install a SWD breaker would this be fine?

Any damage to the speakers likely from this?
FOH

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 234
Posted 06/14/12 at 03:26 PMReply with quote #26 
Yes, you could use the breaker as well, and yes, a switch rated breaker would be better. How frequently are you planning on doing this?

Additionally,...and ideally, you could control them with a simple single pole switch.
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/14/12 at 03:30 PMReply with quote #27 
I would turn it off after each use...  

For some reason I didnt think about just a simple switched outlet until later today.  That sounds like the simplest method.  So whether it be the pole switch or the breaker,  would either damage the speakers or subs long term? 

Lets say they were switched off and on like this once per day.
calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/14/12 at 05:27 PMReply with quote #28 

See above. My DHC-80.2 controls two staged power relays, so...off each time.
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Carl
audioguy

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 529
Posted 06/14/12 at 05:28 PMReply with quote #29 
I would LOVE to be able to power my 4 surrounds (Sparks) without having to reach behind them and turn them on/off.

Is there some kind of Ethernet controlled power outlet that could be programmed or other such device.  (The things you can buy at Lowes would not handle the power requirements needed).


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calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/14/12 at 06:08 PMReply with quote #30 

I have not done any research or have knowledge of any device; anything that I would use would have a relay switching the load instead of a "solid state device"
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Carl
MACCA350

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 93
Posted 06/14/12 at 10:37 PMReply with quote #31 
You can get solid state relays that switch 4-480VAC 10-120A with a 3-32VDC signal. So an electrician could set you up with the capability to use your preamps 12v trigger output to automatically switch your speakers on/off. They could wire the suitable SSR's or mechanical relays into your breaker box on the particular circuits and mount one or more 3.5mm mono 12v trigger jacks on the box.

If you don't want a hard wired solution you could look into incorporating the Niles AC-3 or Russound ACT-1 12v triggered power outlet units into the system to automate things.

Cheers
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calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/15/12 at 01:33 AMReply with quote #32 
I guess that I failed to also mention that I used a solid state relay to control the first contactor (Power Relay) Powering up the Integra, powers up the whole sound part of the system.
Once again, I would not directly control the load (The speakers) with a solid state relay.
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Carl
MACCA350

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 93
Posted 06/15/12 at 06:34 AMReply with quote #33 
Why not? You can get SSR's to easily cover the switching current and voltage requirements and their dielectric strength is in the range of 2500-4000VAC depending on the brand.

Cheers
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calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/15/12 at 12:26 PMReply with quote #34 

For the same reason that a person would give extra money for good filtered sign-wave output UPS over one that just output a square wave, after all they both put out AC. (We are not just powering a motor here)
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Carl
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/15/12 at 01:19 PMReply with quote #35 
Calentz are you talking about something like this?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MP20Relay?utm_source=none&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&gclid=CJrZsZXt0LACFUOo4Aod6D5sXA
MACCA350

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 93
Posted 06/15/12 at 01:55 PMReply with quote #36 
Extra money, solid state relays are more expensive than mechanical relays. I'm still not following you. I mean it's just switching the circuit between open and closed, there's nothing fancy going on.
Whether you use a solid state or mechanical relay makes no difference to the power running through it.

Cheers
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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/15/12 at 02:04 PMReply with quote #37 
Audioguy it does look like there is device Furman makes that has outlets and also can control those MP20 outlets I linked to above.  I called them and it sounds like the ethernet to serial adapter isnt quite out yet,  but you may want to keep an eye on this:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/power-conditioners/furman-cn-1800s-2400s-smartsequencers
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/15/12 at 02:08 PMReply with quote #38 
I think all I need, though,  is a simple manual control of each outlet or whole circuit.  Something simple and cheap but that will also not create any kind of issue with the speakers or subs.  A simple switch was mentioned.  How do I wire that up so that a switch (standard wall switch??) controls whether the speakers and subs get power or not?  I assume its one switch per circuit?
FOH

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 234
Posted 06/15/12 at 04:35 PMReply with quote #39 
SSR's, IMO are fine for control of mechanical relays, but I'd not use them for amplifier switching.

They do dissipate a certain amount of current during operation. They're really dependent on their mounting method and heat-sinking to adjacent surfaces.

All said, they seem a bit counter intuitive because of potential current limiting.  
calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 06/15/12 at 06:35 PMReply with quote #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2
I think all I need, though,  is a simple manual control of each outlet or whole circuit.  Something simple and cheap but that will also not create any kind of issue with the speakers or subs.  A simple switch was mentioned.  How do I wire that up so that a switch (standard wall switch??) controls whether the speakers and subs get power or not?  I assume its one switch per circuit?

I would not use just a "standard wall switch", rather a load rated switch. (Or the circuit breakers) What ever you use, I think it should have a mechanical
make / brake connection between the power source and the load.
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Carl
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