TheRick
I'm reserving my space for the unveiling and thoughts.      They arrived today.  Of course, I'm stuck at work!!! 

I'll try to get this thread filled with pics soon.      Thanks to all who helped me make the decision to purchase these subs with your praises and flat line response curves (don't expect that from my room...lol).   Thanks to the Master of the Deep himself for building my "made to order" subs for me. 

See you all soon....."Shakin the Midwest!"
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
TheRick
Just to get this started, I'll put a better pic in here later.  This was sent via a picture message. 

That is the Outlaw LFM-1 in back, so you can get an idea of the size of the Submersive.  The Onix Rocket 850 Sigs are beside them.  WOO HOO!!!


Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
MikeDuke
Nice.  Now you can change you sig from "soon to be..."  to proud owner.  I am looking forward to your thoughts on how they sounds in your room.  I am sure it will be great.
I simply love this stuff.
Quote 0 0
TheRick

Good idea....it's changed.     I won't be able to do any serious stuff until next week, but I'm going to try to get them hooked up and calibrated and run REW soon.  Then I get to try to add EQ to them.  Fun times ahead. 

Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
MikeDuke
Good stuff.  Like I said, your thoughts will be cool.  You don't have to get them perfect before you post.  I think everyone will be interested in just some raw feelings about them.  Then we can compare what happens after everything is setup properly.
I simply love this stuff.
Quote 0 0
TheRick
More Pics for ya:





Front of my room where the subs will go (where current subs are):



For those that are curious, these are the connectors that come with the sub:


Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
mfine
Stop with the pictures, there are no nobbie or skeeter types here.  WHAT DO THEY SOUND LIKE?  (like I don't know already)

Quote 0 0
TheRick

The pictures will draw people here.     I'm going to post some technical data first to show you all what I'm working with.  It will be a few more days before I can really sit down and listen to one with a movie.  I did a quick sweep though.   Incoming.....

Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
TheRick
Frequency Response:  (NO EQ!)
My room with dual Outlaw LFM-1's, symmetric about front wall:



Single Outlaw LFM-1 on the left side of the center (see above pictures for location):



Single Submersive on the right side of the center, firing side to side (see above pictures for location):



So far I'm liking this....  
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
MikeDuke
Looks pretty good to me.  Incredible that it reaches so low.  I felt the same way when I saw Marks chart of my room.  And that was one.  Once you get that one and the other one setup, it should be quite fun.
I simply love this stuff.
Quote 0 0
engtaz
The last graph is looking good.

engtaz

Quote 0 0
MikeDuke
That seems to be a very similar  theme.  Everyone who has this sub and has posted a frequency response has shown output into the single digits.  Mark said that is how he designed it but to see such a uniformity is very impressive.  You can look at all of the system threads here and see a similar graph.
I simply love this stuff.
Quote 0 0
TheRick
I might try turning the sub to face the front and back of the room and see if it makes any difference.  Mark said it should be minimal.  I'm shocked that it went so low too.  Hopefully I can figure out how to get the EQ worked into it and get it really flat. 

Right now I have one Outlaw and one Submersive calibrated to about the same SPL with band limited pink noise.  I want to do some listening of materials with either sub turned on to actually hear the differences before I take out the last Outlaw and hook up both Submersives.  Getting anxious. 

I ran a quick scene from Transformers last night and couldn't even tell the sub was on.  (This is no fault of the Submersive!!!)  I wonder if my seating position or room just isn't very good.  It could have been that there wasn't any deep bass in that scene...and also, I really didn't have the sub calibrated.  I did turn up the volume on the back of the Submersive until I could tell it was working.  I'm going to try some different movies that I know have deep stuff in them tomorrow (maybe tonight if I can get my son to cooperate..LOL).

I need to check my crossover settings too...there is something ugly going on there at 65hz. 
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
Mark_Seaton
Hi Rick,

Thanks for posting those graphs.  They are quite telling.

That said, now re-set your horizontal scale to stop at say 10Hz.  Next set your vertical scale to display 5-6dB per division.  Things will look more appropriate and we can start looking at what is going on.

After the measurements at the seat, you will want to take some measurements 1-3' forward, back, left & right which will give us some insight as to what dimensions are causing the various peaks and dips.  Hopefully we can find a location for the second SubMersive that helps fill in some of the recessions.  The 65Hz issue looks very narrow.  Don't get hung up on it.  We hear trends more so than narrow notches, and I suspect that a little movement of the microphone will show that notch moving around some.  If there are doors that are normally open or closed, be sure they are in the position you would most commonly listen in, as they can affect the response in surprising ways.

As for not knowing the subs are on, I suspect the issue is the peaks in the bass response, especially the two near 50 & 90Hz.  These will significantly skew your SPL readings with pink noise.  Try setting the subwoofer about +6dB relative to the mains and the average level should be more appropriate.  Finally, make sure you have ALL of your speakers set to small in your processor (which one do you have again?).

I'm sure things will work out nicely and sound great, as there is plenty of room for the DSP-30 to help you with the response you have posted thus far.  Of course adding the second subwoofer may provide some nice smoothing of the response, depending on the location you end up with.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
Quote 0 0
TheRick
Thanks Mark.  I'll try that stuff tonight if I can.  Tomorrow for sure.

It happens that I have theater chairs next to one another (for the 1 foot or so measurements) and behind (for the 3 foot or so measurements).  I'll definitely get to doing that stuff soon.  I have a friend that is anxious to get to doing these measurements because he has your BMF on order. 

I have the Outlaw 950 preamp.  I have them all set to small.  I'm not sure if have the mains set to 60 or 80hz crossover though.  I'm betting they are at 80hz.  Also, I forgot to unplug the mains when I ran these sweeps.  That's surely why I'm getting response out past 90hz and on.

I calibrated the main speakers with full bandwith pink noise (read somewhere that it gives you a better average than band limited).  I had to use band limited pink noise for the subs.  The mains are calibrated to 84db as reference, and the subs close to that (the reading bounces around with sub calibration as you all know).  I usually calibrate the subs to 10db hotter cause I like bass.  Didn't do that in my quick calibration last night though.  What I'm hoping to do is get a feel of the sound quality difference between the two subs that are still hooked up (Oulaw and Submersive).  I set the trim level on the preamp to 0db and then calibrated to 84db on the SPL by using the gain on the back of subs.  That way they are set close to the same level without having to adjust the preamp at all.  I should be able to just turn on the appropriate sub and play the same scene.

I really don't have any room for the other sub, except up front.  So, I'll have to try to get the response as close to flat as I can with the eq.  I do still want to turn them 90degrees and see if that makes any difference. 

Anxious to get started with the measurements.  Feel free to pull up a chair and a beer and come watch. 
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
mfine

looking good!

The rise in response you are seeing down in the low single digits is just noise in the measurements and not real.  To minimize it, I would set the graph to ignore anything below 5 hz, and run the sweeps another 10 db louder to improve the signal level to noise ratio.  The deep drop at 65 is room dimension related and could be reduced or eliminated when you get the second one online (It is mostly gone in the 2 outlaw graph) and try moving things around a few feet here and there.

Start with placement to get things as flat as possible, and then plug in the EQ to tame any remaining peaks.  For example, it looks like your room is going to have a ramp up as the frequency drops from 40 to 20, but that is going to be easy to fix with EQ (unless you want it as a "house curve"). 
Quote 0 0
TheRick
I will give that a try it at higher SPL also.  I need to make sure to unplug my mains this time around too. 

I was just shocked to see how much flatter the response got with this one submersive.  Just from the data I can tell that I've been missing a lot.     I have to figure out those shelving filters when all is said and done so that I can try to achieve relative flatness below 20hz.     WOO HOO!!!
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
Mark_Seaton
Hi Rick,

You are probably -6dB or so at 10Hz there from 20Hz.  This is not where you should spend your time tweaking.  That's the last bit you focus on.  All of the primary sound quality comes from balancing the response above 20Hz. 

Something many don't realize is that if you have your subwoofer running about 6dB hot in the 25-35Hz range and the 10Hz range is -6d to -10dB from that point, that means that 10Hz is equal or -4dB from the bulk of the main speaker level.  You will readily hear that the system is not dropping off down low as your Outlaw subs did.  The exact taper/tilt/shape of the 10-25Hz range is a matter of room acoustics, listening level and most importantly, taste.  First get the other stuff playing nice, especially the range above 35-40Hz and the integration with the main speakers.  I like to start with integrating the center channel.  You can easily send the signal to your center and subwoofer by setting your processor to Pro Logic(or PLII)-Movie mode and then send the same test signal to both the left & right analog(RCA) inputs.  You can then test the signal through the left & right speakers separately by disconnecting the other input.  Note that the test signal will be 3dB louder to the center than the left and right since the processor sums the signals.  The relative level of the sub and main speakers won't change, but the absolute level of both the main speaker and the subwoofer will be 3dB higher when routing to the center.
Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
sales@seatonsound.net
773-290-8436
Quote 0 0
TheRick
That makes sense Mark, and I agree.  I wasn't planning on adding eq to the below 20hz until after I tried to smooth out the rest of the response. 

When you integrate the subs to the center, I'm guessing that you don't need to run a full frequency sweep.  Would it be ok to run from 0 - 200hz or so, just so we get well past the crossover point?

I'm pretty sure that the sweeps above, though very rough, have the mains and center included in the response above 80hz.  The processor was set to PLII.

Something that's worried me about eq is that your not really supposed to boost dips, but only lower the peaks.  Should I try to bring the peaks down to that of the dips so achieve flat...or just get them down to the target level?  I'm sure what "boost" does to things.  I'm guessing people don't like to raise a dip for fear of driving the sub too hard? 

Thanks for all of the input Mark!  I can't wait to have time to play with these.  You're always welcome to stop by if your in the neighborhood and help out.     Is it any cheaper in price if I get it close for ya?     And you drive your HIGHLY fuel efficient vehicle out here instead of flying?  LOL!!! 
Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
mfine
To test the crossover, I ended up feeding a mono signal into the desired channel of the receivers 7.1 inputs.  For example, I used one RCA from my laptop into the ceter-channel input and ran a sweep from 0-120.  The receiver was/is set to crossover at 80 hz so I figured 120 was high enough.  Is this method OK?

I really need to get my destop PC into the room or get a USB to SPDIF converter for my laptop so I can use a digital chain since my laptop sound out SUCKS and I know that is causing issues.  Also, any suggestions on a better but still affordable mic than the Ratshack? 

Finally, with the subs upfront, do you adjust anything other than the levels and the distance setting when trying to get a smooth integration?  I figure the delay distance setting should handle any phase issues as long as the sub and speakers are close and in the same plane, but I am not well ejumacated on this subject.
Quote 0 0
TheRick

mfine wrote:
Also, any suggestions on a better but still affordable mic than the Ratshack? 


The Master will have to address most of your questions...but from my limited research, here is a mic and phantom amps that I am looking at:

Behringer ECM8000 (mic)

http://www.behringer.com/ECM8000/index.cfm?lang=eng

Behringer XENYX802 (amp)

http://www.behringer.com/802/index.cfm?lang=eng

M-audio USBPre (Mark suggested - bit pricier)

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MobilePreUSB-main.html

 

Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
mfine
Boosting a dip takes a LOT of amp power for a "normal" dip (double for 3 db)but the problem is WAY worse for a null like you see at 65 hz.  Adding more power to the waves that are canceling each other out will make them "bigger" but they will still cancel each other out. 

Looking at your red graph, I would just put in a couple of cut filters to get the peaks around 20 and 50 below the 72 db line.  That will get you pretty flat from about 7-60.  Adding a second sub and playing with your positioning (as much as practical) and the receiver settings should get you much flatter in the 60-100 range.  You can see if you need more EQ there after you get to that point but if you do it will probably need to be applied to the fronts and not just the sub.
Quote 0 0
mfine

The Behringer mike is only rated for a flat FR from 15-20khz.  Is there any good correction data for it to make it useful down to 6 or 7?  I am sure it is no worse than the Ratshack and it's adjustment data but is it really that much better?

What I really want is a super accurate mic that is +/- .01 db from 1hz to 40+khz without need for a calibration file, and I want to pay about $2 for it.  Why is that so hard?  
Quote 0 0
TheRick

LOL!   There is a calibration file for the ECM8000 for REW...but I'm thinking if you want to get as accurate as you are dreaming for...LOL...we are going to have to get Mark to sell us his non-working gear and get it working ourselves.  LOL 

Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0
TheRick
Here is the single Submersive, right side of room with NO EQ, with the modified axis: (mains and center still hooked up)


Proud Submersive Owner! "Shakin the Midwest!"
Quote 0 0