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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/09/12 Reply with quote  #1 
See post here at AVS..  couldnt post pics greater than 100kb here so would be hard to keep a decent thread going...  but please check it out as I go along and give me feedback...  just started drywall demolition of the existing room.  Very excited to order my Catalysts soon!


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1409757
calentz

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 150
Posted 05/09/12 Reply with quote  #2 

Was that an existing HT? (Black ceiling)
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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/09/12 Reply with quote  #3 

Yep.  Now it will be a Dennis Erskine designed HT.  Will be turning some stairs at the back of the room that come down into it and extending a wall to make it a true rectangle instead of a space that opens up in the back to some other parts of the basement.

Blackdevil77

Registered: 04/07/12
Posts: 100
Posted 05/10/12 Reply with quote  #4 
Congrats! I order my 3 Cat 12Cs and 2 SubM HPs. I spoke to Mark today on the phone. Unfortunately my mangled blackberry was acting up so I had a very hard time hearing him, but Mark definitely seems like the nicest guy. I look forward to calling him from a land line next time lol, sorry Mark!

Mark said they just have to wait on the 12 inch woofers for the Cats, and Kelly said they don't have confirmation yet, but are expecting them in 3-4 weeks. My theater room isn't complete, but I'm too anxious to see these bad boys lol
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/16/12 Reply with quote  #5 
Question for you guys on Catalyst placement. This is something I have been going back and forth in my mind about but am still not sure what to do.  Dennis's design calls for the Catalysts to sit on a platform in the baffle at a height of 3' 2 1/4".  So that would put the Cat tweeter at 4' 9 1/4" high if my math is correct.  That is roughly 17 inches higher from the height of my ears, I believe.  Since 99% of what goes on in this new room will be movies with my wife and I on the front row,  or just myself in the front middle,  would it make sense to move the Cats down some? I listen to a lot of 2 channel music,  so I dont want them way up high if that is detrimental.  The old 2 channel adage is to have the tweeters, and in this case the tweet / mid  close to or slightly above ear level.   That may be something I just need to get over... but that is basically what I am asking here.

On the flipside,  the height they are at now is right in the middle of the AT screen,  so voices would correctly sound like they are coming from the middle, as intended. 

So what to do?
FOH

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 234
Posted 05/16/12 Reply with quote  #6 
IIRC, Mark has stated on more than one occasion that the MF/HF coax's center can easily be a few, to several degrees off axis, by design. So, it all depends on the geometry of the scenario you proposed. You said front row, however, what is the actual distance and subsequent angle off axis vertically?  

Good luck
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/16/12 Reply with quote  #7 
Off the cuff I am guessing I am about 13' from those speakers.  I will get the plans and measure.

Normal seated ear height  -  maybe ~40"?
audioguy

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 529
Posted 05/17/12 Reply with quote  #8 
Tbat seems WAY too high 
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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/17/12 Reply with quote  #9 

Here is the layout with dimensions.  Its now a full front baffle with a F2 sub instead of a half baffle with the submersive,  but same height for Cats applies.

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Mark_Seaton

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Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,490
Posted 05/17/12 Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2

Here is the layout with dimensions.  Its now a full front baffle with a F2 sub instead of a half baffle with the submersive,  but same height for Cats applies.



Your height calcs of ~57" look correct based on what you indicated to me.  While off the cuff that feels slightly high, assuming the front row is at 13-14' from the screen, which I estimated from the top dimensions indicated, you are only 6-7 degrees below the tweeter if we assume an ear height of 38".  You have the couches, so I would double check the height to insure it isn't hugely lower, and there's no concern if it's higher.

I would leave construction as is, and if you ever wanted to you can always put a 1/4-1/2" lift under the back of the 12C's for an additional 1-2 degree downward tilt.

The distance from the speakers is key.  If you 1/2 that listening distance, the listening angle doubles.
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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/17/12 Reply with quote  #11 
Awesome, thanks.  Those are just seats,  by the way.  They will be these for the front and back row:

http://www.rtheaters.com/FusionCollection/FC-Escape-1019.html
FOH

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 234
Posted 05/17/12 Reply with quote  #12 
Mark, in degrees,...what is the optimal window of coverage, of the Cat's MF/HF drive unit?  

Thanks
Mark_Seaton

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Posted 05/22/12 Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH
Mark, in degrees,...what is the optimal window of coverage, of the Cat's MF/HF drive unit?  

Thanks


Hi FOH,

There are basically 2 answers to this.  You will have very good dialog intelligibility to +/-30 degrees and out past 45 deg with a little high frequency softening.  For the "money seat" and for critical 2ch listening, I prefer to keep my expected listening bubble within ~5-15 degrees, and prefer 5-10 degrees off axis.  The concerns are lessened greatly with distance, where I would pay more attention to this with a shorter 6-9' listening distance, which is admittedly less common for the 12C and more likely for the smaller siblings.

Again, we're talking ideal preference here, which is separate from a useful listening window or pattern.  Even large 60-90 degree wide horns sound better away from the edges of the pattern.

Also remember that the differences in aiming often have a much stronger impact on the energy hitting side walls than they do directly on axis.  Once you find a good location for the midbass delivery and general balance in the room you can then play with toe in to trade between apparent stage width and image focus.  The large scale to the front stage is in fact reliant on some energy hitting the side walls.  Smooth off axis attenuation of a speaker affords you much greater flexibility for experimentation in this regard without mucking up the balance.
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FOH

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 234
Posted 05/23/12 Reply with quote  #14 
Thanks Mark, great post. I appreciate the coverage angle info. My time with them has been brief, however the current pro, two-ways I'm experimenting with really benefit from being dead on axis for best overall presentation.  

Quote:

Also remember that the differences in aiming often have a much stronger impact on the energy hitting side walls than they do directly on axis.


This is something I've experimented with extensively over the last several months. The sidewalls, and the lateral characteristics and contribution to the overall presentation. I've experimented with reflective, diffuse (scattered) and fully attenuated lateral reflection involvement, with multiple types of loudspeaker pattern/throw approaches. The deeper and deeper I traverse into small room acoustics in general, more specifically the acoustics of my primary room, I merely discover things aren't as intuitive as one would think!

I've read Everest, Geddes, Toole, et al, however nothing compares to actual hands on experimentation in any given room. Attempting to correlate measurements with perception, and establishing acoustic avenues to pursue toward specific goals encompassing both playback accuracy, and a nice, pleasing envelopment, is where I am currently. I'm looking forward to taking everything I've discovered in my room, and implementing all that with some new mains


Thanks    
hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/24/12 Reply with quote  #15 
Interesting... over in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1410768

We have Shawn Byrne from Dennis's group saying that if the speakers are that high, they SHOULD be angled downward as Mark suggested.  But my plans call for no such thing. 

Oh well, Mark said its fine...so its fine! 


audioguy

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 529
Posted 05/25/12 Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2
Interesting... over in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1410768

We have Shawn Byrne from Dennis's group saying that if the speakers are that high, they SHOULD be angled downward as Mark suggested.  But my plans call for no such thing. 

Oh well, Mark said its fine...so its fine! 




My side surrounds (and maybe my rears as well) are too high and neither are aimed down.  While that was the plan, the bracket I used did not give me great comfort in being able to hang onto the speakers  They sound fine to me.  I think Audyssey (Pro) helps compensate fore this some, however. 

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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 05/28/12 Reply with quote  #17 

I think I have locations mapped out for four F2 subs now.  Is it advisable to run all 4 on a single dedicated circuit, and the three Cat 12s on their own dedicated circuit?  Or do I need a circuit for each set of 2 subs?
audioguy

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 529
Posted 05/28/12 Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2

I think I have locations mapped out for four F2 subs now.  Is it advisable to run all 4 on a single dedicated circuit, and the three Cat 12s on their own dedicated circuit?  Or do I need a circuit for each set of 2 subs?



The only answer I would trust is from Mark.  I have all of my speakers on dedicated circuits -- not necessary and expensive !!
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hifiaudio2

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 131
Posted 06/05/12 Reply with quote  #19 
Hey Mark,  if you have a moment please let me know your suggestion on my circuit design...
audioguy

Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 529
Posted 06/05/12 Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2
Hey Mark,  if you have a moment please let me know your suggestion on my circuit design...



Call him, text him or email him if you expect an answer any time soon

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